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« I hate Tags: 5 things you don't know about me!!من اجل العروبة »

Morale caste

  • By: Qwaider

  • On:Monday, January 15, 2007 9:07:19 AM
  • In:Thoughts
  • Viewed: (4132) times

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    Rated 4.5/5 stars (153 votes cast) Thanks for your vote!

    Every once in a while someone challenges me trying to pick my brain or probe my personal position on matter that is usually personal in nature. I do try to keep my specific moral value system personal, for many reasons, most importantly that I learned that what's right in my view is not necessarily right for others. But that's not the only reason...

    Let me start by saying that this only applies to matters that are NOT related or interacting with others, or with the society...

    My personal beliefs and understandings define the way one chooses to live one's life. Many people may learn to accept the person as they are or might not. But many do pass moral judgement, which is fine, but basing it on their own set of moral guidelines is not.

    When it comes to morality, the principles are extremely fluid. Right and wrong shift and change based on many factors like age, history, previous experiences, religion, ethnicity, local, traditions, society, upbringing, and many other factors

    Many base their idea about a person based on this judgement. Take for example domestic violence. Not that I condone or approve of it. But some societies view this as part of their culture. While others view it as totally dehuminizing and derogatory. I'll refrain from saying either one is right or wrong because that would be stating my own personal opinion about it.

    Having an opinion about a matter is fine, but extending that to the person might be inappropriate. If a man has specific ideas about how to treat his family, while others protest it might not be appropriate for someone to just decide that that man is evil (in their personal moral system).

    Some women expect a man in a specific form, while others expect him to different. Some like a man with a beard while others with a clean cut. A man might just not be suitable for one type of woman, just as a woman might not be suitable for some type of men.

    We really need to try and take few steps back and look at the big picture. We either consider the whole view using our moral system, or the parties involved moral system. Picking and choosing is a recipe for disaster.

    That's why I personally find marrying an American Arab not a suitable idea. The type of person I am wouldn't put up with the confused mentality which is torn between the two words. Since we're all human we might consider taking what's best of both worlds, but that doesn't work. Other parties involved will disagree.

    At the end of the day, there's no way to please everyone. No matter how hard we try. There will always be opposition. So what I think is everyone should live their own lives by their own standards, what others agree or disagree with might have absolutely no weight, they're just dissimilar people, with dissimilar morale system

    Other Memories Documented on January 15
    « I hate Tags: 5 things you don't know about me!!من اجل العروبة »

    Memories....

    So to put is simply; as long as a person has a moral system they should be judged by that system they have chosen for themselves and only by that. My own values have no weight in me judging another person. I'm I getting this right?

    Add to that their upbringing and local, and person born to immoral parents who have raised him with non that lives in the states, can almost be accepted to do almost every thing we deem as wrong or immoral, and still according to his mutant sense of morality would be totally fine.
    I probably should have added that the the subject matter needs to not interfere with others. I'll update and republish
    Thanks for catching that
    I agree, being judgmental is absolutely wrong, especially when it is based on setting one’s self as a point of departure to judge others’ behaviors, attitudes, and beliefs. Regarding the last idea I also agree, why should anybody think of pleasing ‘everyone’? If it is hard sometimes to please ones own self after making a decision based on personal beliefs, so how would it be when thinking that one can please everyone! That is just impossible.
    Can you give me an example, of a moral choice\issue\belief, that is totally personal, and does not have to do with interacting with others or the society
    Growing one's beard. It might seem unclean to some, but to others it's mandated by their religion.
    Qwaider,

    how is domestic violence not affecting others? If a man is beating his wife or child, he clearly is affecting them. no?
    • #7
    • Iman
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 1/16/2007 7:24:17 AM
    I read this post over and over, trying to make sense of it, but couldn't quite understand what the intended meaning behind it is...

    I was able to get this though...
    an Arab American is out of the question! so unfortunate for those ones! I believe you're the confused one ... ever heard of acculturation?
    So Iman, that's the only thing you got out of this? Well then first allow me to thank you for taking the time. You're a smart woman, you probably can figure it out on your own, so I'm not going to attempt and insult your intelligence here.
    Now, I don't think I'm confused if I know what I'm looking for and go after it. And trust me, I have no issues absolutely with women from back home mentality, or on very few occasions Arab women in the US that have not acculturated that much.
    I assure you, I haven't change a bit since I came here, I had no cultural shock nor have I changed my values or principles. Not even shifted them or morphed them. They're the same, I'm the same, there was nothing here that impressed me much, there was nothing here that wasn't available and accessible for me back home.
    So to cut a long story short as I told you before, I know what I want and I am not ashamed of it. You know why? Just to save myself and the lady a lot of incompatibility headaches.
    I'm not sure what would give anyone the right to decide what I want, like or appreciate? It's my own taste as just as I respect your choice in how you wear your hair, or the color of your shoes, I would also appreciate a little understanding that I might not be a good fit for someone like that. That's of course not one of the ten commandments and I might have exceptions if there was someone who I was involved with romantically. Hell she can be bucknaked from the jungles of the amazon with a bamboo shoot across her nose and if I like her all of the barriers disappear. But I just didn't feel it -right- with an Arab Americans. And I also appreciate if you would respect my personal experience regarding this matter.
    cool?
    Amal, in some societies that might be an acceptable thing. Who are we to decide that they're Immoral?
    I was beaten and spanked as a kid, and so were many of my friends relatives and so many others. And everyone turned out just fine.
    In Old Syria, and you might not believe me but you can ask your mother, or an older lady. If a man didn't beat his wife, she would get upset and think he doesn't love her!
    I for one would never raise a finger, or hit a woman even with a rose, but I would discipline my child appropriately if need be. Without excessively doing it as the lunatics here in the US who break bones and end up punching kids or worse torturing little kids.

    So the bottom line is, MY moral compass, or yours, are irrelevant sometimes when it comes to other people. Yes sure I would stop a man from beating a woman, or a child. But maybe that's not the right thing to do! Who are we to decide that for others?
    "Hell she can be bucknaked from the jungles of the amazon with a bamboo shoot across her nose and if I like her all of the barriers disappear." loooool, I want to attend your wedding in that case! :))
    "That's why I personally find marrying an American Arab not a suitable idea. The type of person I am wouldn't put up with the confused mentality which is torn between the two words."

    You killed it there. It sounded as if you are saying Arab Americans posses confused mentalities that are torn between two worlds. Even if you were to argue that most of them are, or not even most, just a large portion is, wouldn't that still be an example of passing judgement on others based on your own personal experiences measured against your own personal guidelines? Which is something that you said is not ok in the first paragraph.

    I think it makes sense to set policies for ourselves sometimes, even if we knew the rules we set for ourselves do have exceptions that we are willing to ignore. But the reason for setting these policies would be our own skepticism and desire to reduce risk (as we measure it). There is a difference between talking about that, and just talking about others.

    Hope that makes sense.
    What you said Hamzah, actually makes a lot of sense, and it's true what you said that I passed judgement on the masses based on my observations of the few. However, that's a personal position on the matter. Would I dare and say it's a cosmological constant? no way.
    I quantified it heavily when I said, "the type of person that I am", the issue is mine, not any one else's, and the success or failure will only affect me or my personal life. Therefore I find it absolutely acceptable for me to make that choice. Since it doesn't affect anyone else. What do you think?
    Therefore I find it absolutely acceptable for me to make that choice. Since it doesn't affect anyone else. What do you think?

    I believe I already expressed my agreement to the above when I said:

    "it makes sense to set policies for ourselves sometimes, even if we knew the rules we set for ourselves do have exceptions that we are willing to ignore. But the reason for setting these policies would be our own skepticism and desire to reduce risk (as we measure it)."

    I guess I wasn't really addressing how you think, but how you expressed your thoughts.

    But it's not like I have mastered the art of expression myself, so I guess I'll leave it there :D
    • #14
    • Anisa
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 1/15/2008 8:53:04 AM
    Well that, I suppose, would be a moral relativist type of position you espouse -- that standards of right and wrong are merely products of time and culture.  

    If you are religious, please reflect on this -- the prophets that witnessed terrible cultural practices endeavoured to change such practices -- they did not just accept the status quo.  Why not?

    You temper your position by adding later, in your comments, that the 'subject matter' should not interfere with others...and then, incrediously, you emphasize that if a husband beats his willing wife, a moral judgement need not be passed since the practice is culturally acceptable...

    Your indifference, and arrogance, is rather unsettling.

    Not expecting  a reply, as this is rather a late 'memory' documented.
    Yes, Right, wrong, moral, immoral are products of religion, culture, social confines and many other factors.
    I wouldn't say I'm too religious, but I do know that our moral perception is always in motion. The prophets were revolutionaries in every sense. They have come up with things that were -for the most part- considered Taboo and looked down upon. In some cases they were being more strict, while in others too loose. Specifically when dealing with women rights. The amount of opposition was gargantuon. Even from Muslims themselves.

    The specific example I gave about 60 year ago Syria is very valid for a culture that have conditioned people belonging to it to glorify the abuse as a form of love. An external observer will consider this extreme violence while the receiver of the "punishment" is getting her reassurance that her husband actually loves her. Who is right? Who is wrong? Consider someone coming from the future as he looks back to our crude carbon-dioxide producing cars. Where the preservation of the planet has turned into a religion. He would be disgusted of our way of life, while we... see nothing wrong with it.

    As for my indifference and arrogance I believe is where you have crossed the line of objectivity into personal attack. You're no longer considering the thought I presented, but the person that I am, it's ok,  maybe it wasn't intentional. I don't know, but I'll just let it go.

    Expect replies, this is an old thought, not a dead one
    • #16
    • Anisa
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 1/16/2008 8:12:16 AM
    I did not intend to personally attack you -- and I apologize for suggesting your were arrogant and indifferent.  

    There is still something unsettling about your moral relativist perspective.  Even if two cultures have no shared values, it doesn't follow that no correct values exist.  Does this mean that there is no objective correct position on individuals or cultures that partake in genocide or slavery?  

    If no individual or cultural morality is in principle superior, then on what basis can a father or mother guide his or her children by telling them that it is morally wrong to lie, steal, cheat or kill their newborns?  

    You emphasized that you only are interested in marrying someone from within your own culture. I can understand that there would probably be a fewer misunderstandings, misccommunications or instances of marital discord.  But that doesn't seem to be the primary reason -- you seem to prefer the arab culture over the western culture completely, as you said in your comment  "...I assure you, I haven't change a bit since I came here, I had no cultural shock nor have I changed my values or principles. Not even shifted them or morphed them. They're the same, I'm the same, there was nothing here that impressed me much..."

    Would you and your children really have a better future if you decisively adapt only your culture's set of values?  Your family can be morally good because you are doing what your culture says is morally acceptable, but all you and your family be doing is accomodating the status quo.  

    How would an arab culture progress -- and it certainly ain't perfect now -- if it excludes the unfamiliar and that which challenges its current moral code (culturally speaking -- not Islamically speaking)?  And I emphasize the word *progress* -- not just "change" because progress can not happen unless there are objective moral norms that exist outside of your culture.
    Thanks Anisa, there's no need to apologize, I reckoned that wasn't intentional

    Lets look at your argument a little bit and see if it was correct in the grand scale of matters. Instead of the cultural ensemble that each one of us picks as part of their identity. When two cultures collide there will be a huge amount of friction and head on collisions. The example of Genocide is as sad it sounds is actually a good one. People have apparently accepted genocide as a means of ending wars for example. And the west, (lead by the US) have done this so many times an it continues to this day. Does that make it immoral? Absolutely in my book, but not in the book of the Generals.

    There doesn't seem to be absolute right or wrong in these cases. You might be able to argue with a 6 year old telling him that "murder is bad". BUT once someone starts questioning things, like did he ask to be killed? Was he bad? Did he kill other people? Would there be good from killing him? Was he killed in the line of duty? ...etc You will notice it's not a matter of clear right or wrong. Even if I answered NO to ever single question that remains MY set of right and wrong. It will not work for everyone.

    How can anyone define principle to be superior?  for example, lets say lifetime imprisonment is superior to capital punishment, but who are we to decide that incarcerating someone for life is less humane than killing them? Maybe the person actually being tortured by this aimless existence and it's doing him more harm than death. The definition of Moral principle prevents us from casting superior onto it. There is no such a thing
    As for cheating, stealing, or lying you can have your own personal opinion about them. MANY will find context where the are OK. Many already hail all is fair in love and war.
    As a mother, you will need to make a choice, a moral system which you will approve of for your children. That will be your choice. You don't need to compromise one bit on that. It's all yours to devise and execute. But don't expect everyone in the world to share them, or see the value in them as much as you do.

    And yes, I do think the Arabic culture is far superior to the western culture in so many ways, morally is one of them. But that doesn't mean I don't see the good areas in the western culture as well. I will try my best to have my children follow the eastern set of culture that honors their old, and values truth, justice, chastity, integrity and honor. Among other things. How the future plays out for them, is a decision they have to make on their own when they're old enough. My family will actually be breaking the status quo because they're following an alternate set of moral principles that might be stricter than their environment.

    The definition of progress is very vague. Do you consider what we see in here in the west as progress? If anything it has digressed from the morals that once were to what we see right now. All this self gratification and warship in the name of personal freedom while forgetting the very basic of rights the person has towards himself. I'm not going to say Islamic, because Islam only augments good morals it didn't invent them.

    Let me give you a hard collision between my culture and western culture in tow issues, Children discipline through physical punishment. And polygamy.
    These are both considered TABOO in the western cultures. It even bled into our own. When in fact, there's nothing wrong with either one. I might never agree to polygamy, but that doesn't make it bad socially, or people practicing it inferior. It's just like that, different.

    The bottom line for me has always been the idea of how many in the west think they can take their fake social behaviors and think they can project it onto others. Ideas like freedom and democracy being exported to people who don't even care about them in the sense that is being enforced on them. Look at the amount of opposition in Iraq and Afghanistan. It will not calm down it will go up in flames even more.
    You too can have your Memories Documented

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