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« الرومانسية العبيطةAnd now for something different »

Jordanian Hypocrisy!

  • By: Qwaider

  • On:Monday, November 06, 2006 9:10:12 PM
  • In:Thoughts
  • Viewed: (5311) times

    • Currently 4.5/5 Stars.
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    Rated 4.5/5 stars (204 votes cast)

    //The place, Amman, Jordan. Date, end of 1990//
    Thousands go out in demonstrations chanting, "Bilkimawi ya Saddam, Bilkimawi ya Saddam" (Use Chemical [weapons] oh-Saddam)

    Updated/revised

    In those days, if you were one of a group called "Taba3oot El Kuwait" (or "Comers from Kuwait") You would be immediately slapped with shame, and mockery as people look down on you for getting what you deserve "you low cockroach!"

    If you dare to speak out, you would be a Traitor, a Mercenary, an agent for Israel, a tail for imperialistic powers fighting over the middle east. A worthless piece of half chewed human dignity.

    If you even dared to prophecies that the Iraqi Army would not be match in war against the vastly superior armies of 31 Nations, you would be ridiculed publicly and maybe even feel the stench of spits hitting your face from a distance.

    God forbid you mention that Saddam is a murderer, a thief and that he's ruining the whole region... You would probably be stoned to death or flogged publicly with little kids sneaking up on your head and urinating at what's left of your self respect.. "You blasphemous, How dare you". Didn't you know that  Saddam:....

    • Saddam's face has been seen in the moon!
    • His face imprint was seen on a goat in Jarash
    • A Sheep said "Saddaaaam" in Salt
    • Saddam is going to liberate Palestine
    • Nostradamus has prophesied of his victory
    • The religious has come up with words from the prophet about
      صادم يبيدهم في الصحراء 
      (Sadem exterminates them in the desert)

    I remember those days, because of all the strong emotions for me and my half family, because my mother and my sister remained in Kuwait, while me my father and two other sisters went to Jordan. I felt it when I was going to school. When my father and uncle publicly had a shouting argument over this matter. When I remember one of the tenants in my fathers property shouted at my father for the same matter. Little men that were in so much debt to my father but only expressed their inferiority in this manner. They later on regretted, but the hatred has already surfaced.

    I remember watching CNN endlessly, (There was no Aljazeera yet) waiting to see that missile warning signal. Then flip-flop between Jordan TV and the Israeli TV to see if the Scud has missed us in Amman or not.

    I remember people taping their windows, preparing, carbon masks so that they could survive a chemical strike. Does that stuff even work!?

    //The place, Online forums, BBS's, Amman, Jordan Date 2003/2004//

    Again, every single time anyone said, "He's going to lose the war, yet this time but sympathize more this time", gets the Slap across the face. The public ridiculing of ALL of ideas no matter how logical.  I'm not talking about isolated incidents, this was going EVERYWHERE. Oh god I wish people can dig up posts from the blog archives of that era if they had any. To see. Writers, Journalists, Politicians, Analysts even advisers doing the same thing over and over again.

    "He's going to win". "He's going to show them". "Saddam stands for right and good". "He's going to liberate Palestine". "He stands for the Arab dignity and honor"... yada yada yada same old all used-up cliches

    I remember those days because the discussions would be extremely heated and never end, Even during the war, When Mohammad Said Sahhaf was saying there are no US Soldiers in Baghdad, while the tanks were rolling in the background behind him. Then came the great slogan in Amman:
    علي الطلاق ما حد عارف شو صار في العراق
    (I would divorce my wife if anyone knew what has gone in Iraq)

    I know what happened! People were sick and tired of the murderer, and would not die for an ailing statue anymore!

    //The place, Iraq, the time, The day they captured Saddam in a spider hole//

    I remember that day because, it reminds me of the days that I have not lived. In colonial days of Great Britain, France and Italy. When people were enslaved by the vastly superior armies. Dispute my utmost hatred to Saddam, Who caused me and my family the greatest amount of suffering. I felt I got slapped across the face. Not just me, but ALL of the Arab world. As they see a former president of a country, being humiliated to that level.

    I keep remembering a few words inscribed on Al Seef Palace in Kuwait, they say:
    "لو دامت لغيرك ما وصلت اليك"
    (If it has lasted for your predecessors, it wouldn't have made it to you)

    //The place, Here the time now//

    I look at the many articles, especially coming out of Jordan, taking the final stab at the calf that has fell. I couldn't but feel what a hypocritical world we live in. It took 16 years for people in Jordan to realize these facts and have a change of heart. When "Taba3oot El Kuwait" Have said it time and time again, But who are those to know anything?

    Yet this victory seemed so bitter, so painful, so costly. Iraq is in a worse condition now than it ever was under this tyrants' reign. The whole middle east has gone back a hundred years to say the least in everything. Human rights, liberties, tolerance, peace, financially.. even national courage.  Unfortunately the future has never been as dark since I fear that the worst is yet to come

    Don't mistake me for someone sympathizing with Saddam, I have no sympathy for murders like him. Yet, again this triumph feels so bitter. As it doesn't symbolize the will of people, but rather, the imposed will of the modern occupation

    Other Memories Documented on November 06
    « الرومانسية العبيطةAnd now for something different »

    Memories....

    If we were gays, then I would kiss your lips right now for this post!!

    in 1991, my family was against Saddam. in 2003 I knew he would lose and didn't pay much attention to the occupation, but I was and still against this brutal occupation.

    when his trial started, It was obvious that it was meant to humiliate him, the iraqis and the arabs.

    650,000 iraqis got killed since the occupation of Iraq, and after executing Saddam they will be (at least for me) 650,000 + 1 . but again, the way he got executed is nothing but humiliation.

    Yes, as you said, there's a noticable Hypocrasy. I know some people have strong opinions, but there are large number of people who are doing nothing but repeating what have been said, I wonder if they did ever care about Iraq or Iraqis or knew anything about what's going on on Iraq.

    There are people who have different but respectful opinions and they know what they're talking about; like Batir & ArabObserver, For example. but they are few!

    Now let the rest play the repeating game. Now it's moda to praise the American occupation against Iraq, unlike the moda of attacking Kuwaitis and praising Saddam in 2003.

    The brave & honest Emad Hajjaj (www.Mahjoob.com) have strong impact, let's hope he makes some change.
    • #2
    • Danah
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 11/7/2006 12:43:06 AM
    You know what's this all about .. the desperate need of the Arab Nation for a hero ,for salvation idol or for someone to pick up their scattered pride and dreams , and for that they attach themselves naively and blindly to whatever and whomever " appear" to stand against barbaric west ideologies  , without taking a second look to the fake him and catching that hidden agenda appearing poorly from the folder he holds , glittered with the magical words "salvation , liberty and peace " on .. This is my personal thought..

    We simply starve for someone to carry our smashed hopes and dreams , that’s why we run to whatever bling and shine without having a second thought that it could be the fire coming from hell to burn us ..
    • #3
    • Eli
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 11/7/2006 12:51:11 AM
    I don't understand why Arabs have such a problem with the US helping to liberate Iraq.  We are nothing like the French, UK, or Italy.  We are the US we stand for different ideals; the people would never support an occupation like what has faced your country in the past.  We do support a stabilization of the region, but that is to end all the pain and suffering currently going on.  Our oil dependence will soon be over; we are more interested with the safety of our country and those of the world.  

    Since we have already involved ourselves we do not want to leave the region in the state it is in.  If Iraq could rise to stabilize itself and supports efforts to protect its citizens and a stable government we would be out of the region in a heart beat.  Especially since the masses here have grown tired of waiting for the process and have become upset at the reaction of some Iraqi people to our aide.  OK I understand your people are prideful, and would have rather the change have been initiated from within; I think your people should stop looking to the US with hate.  

    Realize that the US and Israel have nothing to do with each other.  Focus your energies on making a system of government work in Iraq that can support the safety of the civilians and end all the blood shed.  I am tired of seeing death from any country US, Iraq, or any other Arab nation.  Won't people start focusing on the solution and stop focusing on who brought on the change?  Won't the Arabian nations start looking to other stable countries in the region as an example?  I don't know much about the region but from what I can see Jordon is a great example.  

    The US's involvement is a stepping stone but true victory will come from the people rising to rule their-selves.  The world is cheering for your region to stabilize and become an area where all citizens are safe, equal, and live happy lives.  But most importantly your people are safe and have the chance to voice opinions openly and publicly.  As a citizen of this world brought in equal to any other citizen why should you not have that right to voice your opinions with in the limits of not infringing on the rights of others to voice theirs?  

    Why shouldn’t Saddaim pay for all the pain, suffering, and oppression that he caused on his own people?  Set an example to the world that no ruler will be allowed to cause such pain and suffering to people.  Leaders and governments are in place to protect the people, they should be placed by the people, and they serve us, when their interests become contaminated they should be replaced.  Set a framework so that this can be achieved in your countries with out more blood shed.  From time to time it is human nature that their will be corrupt leaders.  When they are found, they also will be replaced.  A full out bloody revolution shouldn’t be the requirement for this change.  No more blood SHED!  Say no to death and yes to life!     
     
    Eli, I don't want to shift focus of this post from the Jordanian reaction to what's going on in Iraq, people have already spoken volumes on this matter. I don't want to debate it again, but I really want to answer some of the points that came in your comment, mainly because I think you deserve to to know a little bit more about the situation. I do realize that you know quite a bit, but maybe it's time to get a little bit more information from a different perspective (not opposite)

    with all do respect, Liberate Iraq from who? Their IRAQI leader? And substitute him with occupation forces!? Liberate to occupy! Come on!
    Any occupation forces is not better than any one else. As long as there is occupation there will be violence and unrest and this is to say the least. Add to that that the real reasons of the occupation are NOT the welfare of the Iraqi people (they were there for 20 years suffering, so just right now out of the blue the US wants to play world police)
    And to prove your point about occupation, look at the shameful practices of service men, killing, mutilation, torture, rape, just one scandal after the other and the toll? 650,000 civilians dead! And the number is rising.
    I don't know where you've been living for the past 2 years. But if this is not utmost failure of an operation. I have no idea what else could be considered failure.
    As for Oil dependency, Again, I have no idea where you get your information from, but with a record number of SUVs sold in the US, it's highly unlikely that this is going to happen any time soon. Till then .. Hally Burton will run the show

    Do you really think the US will withdraw from Iraq if it was stable? I don't know if you really believe that. But as long as special interest groups are running the elections and thereby the whole of the US their private wars will still be waged. And occupation will continue.
    As for hating the US, Eli, come on never hated the US, the majority of all Arabs especially post Bush era loved the US this includes factions deemed terrorist by the US government. Arabs DO NOT HATE THE US. The whole world has a position against the US policies these days. NOT the people. But oftentimes it's innocent civilians that pay the price of the actions of the government. You don't have to go far to prove my theory, just cross the border to Canada, and see if you're getting the same respect that you once enjoyed only 6 years ago.

    You are kidding about the US and Israel! This is something that even the US and Israeli governments don't deny. Israeli support comes mostly from the US, and this is not something that any one is shy from putting forward. It's a fact. Well documented.
    Now I wouldn't go as far as saying that it's the US to blame for what Israel is doing. But the US must shoulder greater responsibility towards what the Israeli government is doing. Hundreds of Palestinians killed in couple of days and Mr Bush comes out and says Israel is defending itself! Come on.

    The solutions are simple and available yet they're being avoided by the US government. End the occupation, stop the blind support to Israel, Stop Vetoing security council resolutions against Israel. Implement UN Resolutions against Israel (instead of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Iran) only. Put the wellfair of the majority (the millions of Arabs and Americans) in the balance before the welfare of the few in Israel, and you will get your peaceful solution. It doesn't need to happen overnight, but not worrying about these issues for ever means they WILL explode and continue to explode until they consume the whole region and one day the world. Because some issues just don't go away with time. ESPECIALLY issues like the millions of Palestinian refugees

    Nothing would make me happier than this region going back to the stability it had in the early 70's. But I guess that will never happen now. Israel wages a war once every decade almost. And People in the middle east are really getting frustrated by this. I see this reaching a boiling point and very soon

    I totally agree with you, Saddam needs to pay for his crimes, and so should the US government, and the Israeli government, and every occupier and murder there is.  Remember again, that the number of people killed under his rule was WAY LESS then under the American rule. Quite sad really.

    The US couldn't care less about what he caused to his people, the us SUPPLIED and SUPPORTED and turned it's eye to what ever he was doing. This is just a charade nothing more, nothing less. He killed those people 20 years ago. And only now this is an issue for the moral US? Come on ... please don't insult our intelligence with such nonsense.

    Again, Saddam sucks, he should have been replaced, assassinated, overthrown a million years ago. But it was the US support that kept him in power and allowed him to continue what he was doing.

    And yes, No more bloodshed, we continue to pray that people in Iraq will eventually find life and peace. And that Citizens of the United states stop listening to their biased media and see what's going on in the world as it really is
    • #5
    • abdullah
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 11/7/2006 5:41:33 AM
    Well Samer, you have answered Eli well, yet if he comes back I would like to debate him one point after the other if he likes.

    I agree as well with Dannah so much.
    And I would say, we are people with thousands of year’s history. Other powers were tempted through history to occupy our lands; they caused us to suffer human and material losses. But that has not bent our resolve and will, the only difference between others and us that we take time to change and when we do, we sweep every thing out of our way. Occupiers always leave with so much humiliation and our land always continue to be ours.

    That land has been irrigated with our forefather’s blood, and our blood is not more expensive than theirs. Our enemies come to our land with hate and leave carrying our beliefs and sets of values. We leave an ever-lasting print, and they become more of followers to us than we are followers of them.

    That is something Eli and others do not understand, and should understand. Eli may agree with me that it is counterproductive to spend so much time, money, and lives to achieve nothing but failure.

    Heed the warning of history, as our flesh is bitter and poisonous on the long run. Even if you kill the last one of us, our blessed land will sprout new generation from nowhere you can imagine carrying our banner.
    That black banner has "La Ilaha Ela Allah " on it as glorious and lasting as time itself. Your technology on the long run will help you not, as it will always boil down to you and us. When we extend our hands out to you with peace that is not out of weakness, but out of duty imposed on us by Allah, to be mercy to mankind.

    As for Israel, it is drunk with its might, yet its mere existence was in the balance, and if it was not for the UN security council, the spark of war it has ignited would have spread all over from ocean to ocean. The planned assault on Lebanon has marked the countdown for the cancerous body to be removed. We are not dreaming as you may think, we just see what you cannot see. Let time between us be the judge. But out of mercy I say No STATE LASTED WHEN UNJUST PREVAILS IN IT EVEN IF IT WAS A STATE OF BELIEVERS. Injustice and oppression has spread all over via the so called super power that its motto is "Who is more powerful than us", don't they know that Allah is the most powerful of all and to Him belong the Heavens and Earth and what they contain within. That Almighty God "Allah" is the real might that counts, and no other does. This is just a reminder, that don’t be cocky with your technology and power, otherwise you will meet the fate of first 3Ad and you will be written in the history as the second 3Ad that had met its fate because it did not heed the multiple warnings of God.
    Well I never thought I will live to the day to agree with one of your political posts Q ! but I totally agree, I have been telling people since 1998 till present, Sadam is not a hero he is a murderer but no one would listen to me or rarely do, I simply say you live in Jordan and have a job a life and you support Sadam's foreign policies, don't expect the poor Iraqi's who live under his internal policies to support what ever he does because at the end its them paying the price and we sit on a sofa in comfort supporting what ever sounds good at the time !!

    Danah- a agree with you we need a hero and we keep a blind eye to every thing else, people seem not to have standards, and Q you are not going to like this : ) but Hasan Nasrallah is the same story to me! we are in dire need for someone anyone to free Palestine or stand up to Israel and America no matter of his other ideas ideology history, I don't want to reargue this issue but just an idea think about it.
    If I am a judge 10 times death sentence for him is not enough, It's clear like sun..bunch of thiefs murders control this country..halla2 sar w2t el masha3er al kawmiyeh ! please Arabs use your mind once and be objective!
    • #8
    • hope
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 11/7/2006 1:24:20 PM
    I just find it a bit funny and very Americanized honestly that this whole thing was televised. I mean really take the man to court but why should the entire world watch it? This just isn´t Arabic style, this is yet another American reality show.
    • #9
    • abdullah
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 11/7/2006 4:13:05 PM
    One more things to all of my brothers and sisters, our prophet SAAW
    has said:" don't one of you be an Ema3a, if people do wrong he does and if they do good he does, but if they do good he does, and if they do bad  stay away from committing the bad" Which implies to judge an action based on your value system (ISlam) and not how popular the action is at the moment. We are free people, and no one should impose on us what to do and how to do it. Supporting a local tyrrant is not the same as supporting a ORIGINAL KAFIR tyrrant with the name of justice. Justice under occupation is no justice my friends. Remove occupation , then court Saddam, as for now Saddam court has no significance (although I am one who still believe he is a CIA agent , like many, and my presence in this country for long has gave me the opportunity to gather real evidence of that, as he was aconcern of mine for a while then because of his tyranny)
    Abed, I agree with you bro it seems its a moda. The real concern for us is Iraq and its contineously slaughtered people. may Allah have Mercy!
    • #10
    • Eli
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 11/7/2006 5:30:58 PM
    Oh my goodness, I need to come back and read this more thoroughly too fully digest.  I need to go vote, but thank you for the overwhelming response to my post.  Oh and Eli is a she not a he.  Qwaider you very nicely answered many of my questions I can't say that I fully understand yet.  I have been doing a lot of research recently based on the upcoming elections because I needed to understand what the heck is going on.  I come from a different world, and none of this makes any sense.   

    Thanks,
    Eli, I pray to god that you didn't vote Republican :)
    • #12
    • Eli
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 11/7/2006 7:18:09 PM
    OK here are some counter points…..  that I basically want your opinion on.

    Statistically speaking 650,000 is flawed, but either way it’s over the 500,000 mark which is way to much in my book.  The US as murderers…. We aren’t murderers we went into a region fighting terrorist control, I never agreed with going into Iraq not because of any other reason other than its not our business or affairs.  I would not break down the door on my neighbor’s house and kill the husband because he didn’t like his wife’s cooking.  It’s not my business maybe he will grow to like the food, I don’t know….

    The US is definitely moving away from oil dependence, but I guess not soon enough.  After having a conversation with someone that is more informed then me, but of a different political alignment I’ve come up with these reasons for the war.

    1 Friend says : oil was one, noone denys that
    2 Friend says : it WAS to help the people of Iraq.. you don’t see us taking over Saudi arabia...
    3 Friend says : they were an enemy of the US, at the wrong time. After 9/11, the US decided we'd tolerate no more enemies

    Of which I do not agree with 1 and 3

    [11:01] Friend: the oil thing needs to be expanded
    [11:01] Friend: we didn’t go in to steal oil
    [11:02] Me: then what did we go in to do
    [11:02] Friend: Iraqi companies will run the oil wells, Iraqis will profit.. they'll have the US as their biggest customer
    [11:02] Friend: we wouldn’t allow them to use oil as a weapon against us
    [11:03] Friend: we wouldn’t let Sadaim influence the world market with oil.. releasing some to draw people in and get them dependant, then tighten the grip again
    [11:03] Me: well that don’t seem right then it is occupation we have no intention of leaving
    [11:04] Friend: how so?   In a way yes.. because McDonalds will stay behind, and American ventures will stay behind, but the US military will be gone (We might keep air force bases there to launch against Iran)

    [11:07] Friend: Al-qaida and the insurgents FAILED to stop the formation of a democratic government.   That was their first goal, and it failed.
    [11:07] Friend: now they're trying to cause a civil war, to make the government collapse
    [11:07] Friend: they're winning that fight so far, but it isnt over
    [11:08] Friend: thats where those hundreds of thousands of deaths has come from
    [11:08] Friend: what does a civil war have to do with the US occupation?
    [11:08] Friend: how did we cause that?
    [11:09] Friend: by removing the man that held down the majority?
    [11:10] Friend: Sadam was brutal. His sons were brutal. they used to rape and murder on a weekly basis
    [11:11] Friend: his sons would steal wives from men, have the husbands killed, rape the women, then toss them into prison afterwards
    [11:11] Friend: so what are these insurgents fighting for? That?
    [11:11] Friend: they want that back?
    [11:12] Friend: then they obviously don’t care about the Iraqi people.
    [11:13] Friend: Government is a tool of the people.   it can be unwieldy, but we ultimately control it. The people of the US want Iraqis to be happy, and so regardless of the reasons some businessmen wanted to go to Iraq, that is the end result America demands
    [11:14] Friend: so vote republican
    [11:14] Friend: they'll go back to congress grateful but humbled, and find a way to solve the problem
    [11:15] Friend: Democrats will withdraw all troops, the civil war will grow out of control until the Shiites kill every last Sunni. people like Sadr will have greatest authority, and Iraq will align with Iran
    [11:16] Friend: and together they will use oil to force the US to cooperate with them
    [11:17] Friend: we wont be able to stop it, because for the next 2 years, the White house will have no time for ANYthing outside of congressional hearings
    [11:18] Friend: if they weren’t so hellbent on running away from Iraq, I'd want to vote democrat. Republicans have messed up too much

    What do you think about the above, and what is your theory of the outcome if the US leaves Iraq?  I agree about the sanctions on Israel what is happening in their affairs is simply unfair, but in their defense and to hear your opinion.  Aren’t they defending themselves from terrorist groups launching rockets at them?  If my neighbor shot a gun into my home and didn’t kill anyone, you better believe I will be breaking down his door warning him.  If he did it again and the police didn’t do anything about it I would kill them myself to protect my family.  Again the views above might be true they might not be true and I do not agree with them if they are true not all, but what do we do.  What is the best solution, how do you propose the world moves forward from these horrible mistakes and tragedies.  Most people who are republicans are not going to vote because they don’t support Bush, yet they will not vote democratic because their support of stem cell research.  The democrats’ well you better believe they are going to vote.  Bush has always been an embarrassment and shame for the US.  But is it really better for the people of Iraq for us to leave.  Please comment especially about what is going to happen if the US leaves.       
    Alright, that was a huge comment, I don't know where to start.
    Once again, this post is not about Iraq, but I guess there is no way around this...
    The number of people killed in hundreds of thousands is not acceptable, I don't care what the justification of the final numbers are going to. These are innocent civilians
    And yes, if someone is committing "things" in their country no one has the right to be world police. They can rally the whole UN behind their cause and get some consensus to go ahead and take action. Not take it upon themselves to force change down people's throats
    The US is not moving from Oil dependency any time soon, there are efforts being made and I hope they will be fruitful in the future
    US Went to Iraq for:
    1) Revenge from Saddam
    2) Control the middle east
    3) Control oil (It's NOT a US right who has it, if people have it and chose not to sell it, taking it by force is considered ..... ?)
    4) Iraq paused no threat to the US or it's neighbors at the end of 2003, they have complied and had UN sanctions against them that lead to the deaths of over 1 million Iraqi children due to lack of medications and essentials
    5) Countries have the right to defy US foreign policy, this is their sovereignty which means. They have the right to disagree, the US has no right forcing or going to war against anyone on that basis

    I disagree that US didn't go there for PERSONAL interest. Not the best interest of the Iraqi or anyone else for that matter. Can we stop arguing about that? EVERY NATION on the PLANET goes after their interests. Lets STOP incriminating the motive and forget about the means that lead to the situation we have today
    Iraqi companies were running the oil production preoccupation. They were selling oil to everyone INCLUDING the US. And they complied with OPIC prices. If they so choose not to sell to the US, there are many alternatives for the US government. WAR is not an acceptable alternative. If someone uses their natural resources to protest US policies that is their right. It doesn't matter if it's Oil, gas, or what ever. Taking it by force again is thievery. Just the thought that "We wouldn't allow them to use oil as a weapon against us" is an imperialistic statement meaning the US is above all moral code. It wouldn't be the case if it was Russia who refused to sell something to the US.
    The oil market is like any other market governed by supply and demand, and I doubt Saddam could have controlled it with it's 2million barrels a day, something Nigeria can match. We didn't talk about Saudi, Kuwait, UAE and the rest of the oil producing countries. (Including Venezuela)
    American ventures are not god's gift to humans on this planet. If they choose to close their markets to them, to promote their domestic products. That's their right too. There is no law that enforces this.
    Insurgency is not there to stop democracy! They're totally unrelated things. Insurgents=Freedom fighters wanting to rid their country from external forces. Anything home brewed is not related. Forcing democracy or any set of ideals on anyone is absolutely the opposite of giving freedom. Once you force ANYTHING on anyone you take away their freedom. Insurgency exists ONLY because of the occupation. Civil war exists because the delicate balance has been ruined by someone who obviously has no idea how to deal with the situation. No plan, no exit strategy, failure on so many levels in basic planning
    The government there is going to collapse because it's been forced onto the people. All the fighting factions don't accept it or care for it ... so it's only natural that it might end up collapsing. Unlike the government in Venezuela for example which despite all US efforts to force a change has remained strong and embraced it's leadership.
    Saddam and his sons were brutal assholes. No one is disputing those facts. But at least they know how to strike a balance and control the country. The end result. Iraq prospered under them. No one can deny that. They had a solid economy, a huge amount of advancements in all fields and a lot of wealth. THAT'S what the US didn't show. Iraq was one of the most advanced countries in the middle east right before 1991 second gulf war
    Yes, Sons would steal the wives, but the US also doesn't set the standards on holding morality with one scandal after another for senators and politicians molesting children, raping minors and in some cases murder and cover ups.
    The PEOPLE of the US are NOT the GOVERNMENT of US! I totally agree, people of the US might aim at being as great as they can towards the Iraqi people. However, the US government and it's foreign policy is totally something else. The people of the US have spoken their words in popularity pulls. And I absolutely support them in that
    I don't think voting republican is the answer. It's time to try something else. Apparently it was not working, it's not going to work now.
    Democrats never said they want to withdraw troops! They are in favor of withdrawing but in a"Smarter" way away from the best interests of interest groups and for the best interest of both the Iraqi and American people

    Keeping the troops there indefinitely is not the answer, it will achieve nothing. Except more young men coming home in body bags, and more suffering for the Iraqi people. To put out a fire you need to do one of 3 things. (A) Remove oxygen, (B) Remove the fuel, (c) remove heat. project that on the current situation and tell me what works.

    If and when the US leaves Iraq, there will be major issues to deal with. I don't see an easy answer and don't think just picking up and leaving is a right solution either.  This needs to be considered from ALL dimensions and a decision is then needed to ease up the tension. But a change in foreign policy for the US is LONG overdue. Playing world bully is NOT acceptable, no one accepts it regardless of their local

    Another issue you throw in there that is not really a place to discuss in a single comment, this is becoming part of a book. The issue of what's happening in Palestine goes back 60 years. Not one or two. Many of the people of Gaza are people who were driven out of their homes (look up genocide) in Palestine by the Israeli occupation forces. When they fight back with home made firecrackers you don't go and systematically commit atrocity after atrocity and have the whole world stand still. If the same was done in Iraq you would have "Liberated" it 20 years ago. People have the right to defend themselves. I have no doubt. But what's happening is murder. It's like the Spaniards did when they occupied south America. Only it's happening in the 21st century. It's not acceptable. And the US Standing still and not doing anything about it is another reason people feel outrage. When the single pole in the world is not doing anything to protect innocent civilians who have been under this occupation and oppression for the past 60 years.
    Anyway, that's a whole other matter, we can talk about it at a alter time. But always remember that what ever the Palestinians are doing is a REaction towards the unjust situation they're in right now. Israeli blood is not more valuable than Palestinian blood. Remember that

    Stem cell research? You're making me laugh. Do you think what ever you decide in the booth is going to stop this from happening? China is already performing HUMAN cloning and we're still worried about stem cell research that may hold one day the cure for people who have alzheimer's, cancer and other diseases?? Come on... these are not even Animals this is tissue that otherwise be thrown in the garbage!

    I thank you for your statement about Bush, but what I truly believe is that for the first time in US history it was CLEAR that the president is NOT an instrument of the people. Let me correct that. Not an instrument for ALL the people. But rather special interest groups that are mandating and forcing the US policies and it's quite sad to see this first hand.
    • #14
    • abdullah
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 11/8/2006 1:31:07 AM
    Well said Samer, as we speak more murders are being committed on the civilian population of Gaza with no even concern for the human toll.
    IS THIS JUSTICE AND PEACE you wanna spread in our countries???
    • #15
    • Eli
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 11/8/2006 4:51:15 AM
    Qwaider, you are very right, it’s very very sad.  The whole world is falling apart, and I hope more people realize our role.  But you did contradict yourself, you don't think we should be meddling in Iraq but you want us to meddle with Palestine?  So should the US play cop or not?  If we were to play cop we would need to go into country after country after country.

    I don't understand your revenge from Saddaim comment do you mean that the son seeked revenge for his father's war?  I hope that the US doesn't operate that way.  On the news tonight their was a poll that said 42% based their vote on corruption.  Corruption in our own government, he stole the election to begin with, (I am in Florida BTW - little bit of history for you).  Fooled the masses with his scare tactics 9/11 terrorist yaddi yaddi, fooled my parents with the weapons of mass destruction rhetoric.  (I've heard that this was common knowledge that they did have it and hid it - what is your opinion)  It is all very sad and disappointing, and all this mess has completely changed my view of our government.  

    At one point in my life I supported our government very strongly and wanted to serve my country because I had illusions that it was great.  But around the same time 9/11 happened and our reactions to 9/11 changed my opinion, and the scare tactics used by our government on our people was straight out of the "War of the Worlds" book classic textbook control tactics.  I still feel our country is great and we will overcome this scandal and recover... good will have victory over the bad....  Let’s just hope that the democrats will win, and some positive change will take place, and that they are not plagued by the same corruption.  :-(  

    Stem Cell research - well I am not against it :-P I was just pointing out that this was a reason for a lot of very religious republicans refusing to vote either way (incase you were curious what was happening over here).  Sorry for taking over your thread, and debating all these points.  But thank you for helping me understand another view point that is not so different then my own.  I just needed to be sure, because I wasn't really clear on my views.  I will appreciate some blog links, or other links to places where I can read more about the views of the Middle East people, obviously in English only please hehehehe
         
    I'm not contradicting myself. The situation of Iraq and Gaza is only similar in who's enforcing the oppression. In the case of Gaza it's Israel. And most are only asking the US to just back off or at least reduce it's blind support/protection/aid/cover-up to Israel. And consider the poor people living under the worst of conditions
    Now, the revenge part is simple, and well known. George W wanted to avenge people who allegedly had a plan to assassinate his father.
    Him stealing the elections is one thing, millions suffering and dying is another. It's the consequence of systems that are no longer balanced and in check such as any good democracy would have. I strongly believe that the US government knows way more than it releases and not only on the front of war support or 9/11 but on many other things. They believe they need to protect the public from themselves. Weird concept in my book. I don't believe in conspiracy theory, yet they're MANY things that can be considered conspiracies. Conspiracies to drive the masses into belief, one way or another. To drive women to give up their sons and daughters willingly in support of a war that is being waged at a much higher level.
    Supporting the government can be achieved in many many ways. Opposing some actions is not necessarily not supportive. To the contrary, that's the best form of support in my humble opinion.
    This country is great. It has the potential to be much greater, and to play a more functional role in world peace.

    Check my blogroll for many good links. You can also go to http://Qwaider.com for a little excerpt with each post and follow them accordingly. I'm glad I was of service to you to help you better understand things on the other side of the table. Hopefully I did a good job.
    Always Remember the following facts:
    Arabs and Muslims don't hate Americans
    Islamic Teachings as well as Arabic traditions do not promote violence or terrorism
    People all over the world see the same thing, just comprehensive peace! May we all enjoy it
    Arabs and Muslims had the concepts of equality for thousands of years. And although sometimes certain things are blown out of proportion by some. That is not the real teachings and rules of the culture
    I admit that in 1991 I was with Saddam.

    It isnt that I am a hypocrite but it is fair to say that I was ignorant back then. I was 13 years old back then. I was taught at school the dream of the Arabic union.

    The day my neighbour told me about Iraq invading Kwait, I percieved it as an attempt to create a union rather than an occupation alike the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian land.

    I was so naive and ignorant back then. I thought of Saddam as of the Arabi leader who would achieve our dreams. Unfortunatly years later I discovered that it was nothing of what I used to think of.

    I don't think that people are hypocrite. They just didn't know enough. There are still a lot that are still sticking to their views of Saddam. A lot are still considering him their hero regardless of what he has caused Iraq as a country and Arabs as a nation.

    It is not wrong to admit your mistakes and change your attitude. I guess it is more shameful to close your mind and refuse facing the truth when it hits you in the face.

    Thanks Abed Hamdan for the compliment about my respectful thoughts :).
    You too can have your Memories Documented

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