Arab Ideas

By: Qwaider

On:Tuesday, October 03, 2006 2:48:30 AM
In:Thoughts
Viewed: (5605) times

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A litte sentance stopped me today, and kept echoing throug migh head....

"a lot of our [Arab] ideas need to go down the drain"

Frankly, I've been living most of my adult life in the west, while at the same time remember a third of my life that I lived in the Arab world

I can't say I'm impressed with the west ... not one bit, at least not on the social level. The thing is, I never was, I didn't get a cultural shock nor have I experienced anything of that. I was welcoming and embraced this experience with open heart and mind.

I can't deny that I enjoy the freedom I have over here, and the beauty of the country and a bunch of other things. But when it comes to ideas.... All the imported ideas here don't really impress me.

The thing is that I keep viewing our glorious eastern ideas and can't help but feel infatuated with them. They're so gallant and benevolent that makes you feel so proud to be a member of this civilization, with such an amazing inheritance

So my mind pupped up couple of reasons for that sentence:

We really don't know (or appreciate) how great our civilization is
Some people have taken advantage of certain rights and privileges in the civilization that left a bitter taste in every one's mouth to the point that it caused us all to suffer (like violence against women or certain aspects of the socioeconomics of the whole civilization
We are impressed with some false ideas about the west
Someone was able to get-to-us and prove to us that the GREAT that we have is worse than the mediocre that they have

Let me give a little example of women, because this, after all, is what it's all about. and I will make a quick comparison.

The only think that women in the middle east don't have that women in the west enjoy is sexual freedom, and what's related to that subject, other than that everything is allowed (other than being an Imam, but a woman can be almost anything else) So no work limitation. Hijab is not part of this because, for the most part it's not forced onto women it's a choice, and it SHOULD always be like this

Now, what Muslim women have and western women don't:

Males are responsible to provide for her, EVEN if she has money or work
A Husband is expected to pay dowry
Children have child support
Women get Alimony and delayed part of dowry in the case of a divorce
Women get the custody of their children
Women can inherit
Women can own property
Women can not be evicted from her home without providing a suitable location for her to live
A Women takes 7 of her relatives to hell (father and higher, son or lower, brother, paternal uncle and maternal uncle, husband and nephews) If a women is ever hungry, or can't have a place to stay, it's every one of those duty to take care of women
She can't be kicked out of home when she's 18
Adultery is not punishable by death if the woman (or the man) is not already married (extremely abused rule in the Jordanian society)
A married woman has absolutely no financial obligations towards the family. Even if she works and has money and even if her husband is poor. She can still expect to get money for her expenses
Men dying in defence of their woman are considered Martyrs
A woman may reject the marriage of an unacceptable suitor
A woman during her period is not abandoned in a separate room in the house and considered unclean, nor is her food, and anything she touched considered like that.
A woman has the right to demand for intimacy and has the right to get a divorce if her demands are not met.
A woman has the right to divorce her husband on the grounds of violence, impotence or even lack of respect in the form of insult and many others. (try to explain that to a western)
A woman might have to seek husband's permission to work but she can NOT be forced into work
All of the woman's body is considered Awra and sacred. Only worthy and trustworthy people are allowed to see it or touch it (the point here is that it is a CRIME Islamically to harass a woman by looking at her inappropriately or touching her inappropriately)

When you think that women in the west have only had SOME of these, and 50 years ago had NONE of these while Muslim women have enjoyed this for 1400 years ... the falsehood of the glamour of the western civilization is immediately shattered! All you need to look at is live tv talk shows and you will see how much respect the east has for women

Now back to the main subject as this is JUST ONE example of so many more. But I guess people will never learn to appreciate how great what they have ... until they see how horrible it is otherwise

Maybe some need to go down the drain, but I'm positive, many just need to polished and presented again... we're really worth them

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« Look who turned out to be a feminist

كلام مسلسلات »

Memories....

#1
esizzle
Said
On: 10/3/2006 5:46:40 AM

"But I guess people will never learn to appreciate how great what they have ... until they see how horrible it is otherwise"

Excellent sentence, I think you should apply it to yourself as a male Arab and compare that to being otherwise: a female Arab.

#2
none
Said
On: 10/3/2006 7:28:32 AM

This is the most ridiculous piece I've ever read. Where in the West are you living? Women can't own property...? The entire post is riddled with mistakes.

#3
Qwaider
Said
On: 10/3/2006 8:12:03 AM

Esizzle, I've said it before ... I trade places with an Arab women ... In a heartbeat ...
None, Just go back 50 years ... not more. I stand by EVERY SINGLE WORD I SAID ... because .. I know these are FACTS!

#4
abdullah
Said
On: 10/3/2006 9:00:46 AM

As a man who lived 90% of his life in the west as well, I agree with most what you have said.
But I disagree with Hijab statement where you say Hijab is a choice, implying its optional. No it's not, it is a consequence of Faith.

#5
Qwaider
Said
On: 10/3/2006 9:05:06 AM

Which a woman chooses to follow or not. Men can't really "force it" on women, they can "Encourage it"

#6
7ala
Said
On: 10/3/2006 9:26:29 AM

cant force it ??!!! yeb2a inta msh shaief sho elly beseer 3ana !!
nos elbanat ma byetrabo 3al ai shi fi eldeen w bekon ma besallo w belbeso el7ejab fi elghaseb !

#7
Qwaider
Said
On: 10/3/2006 9:28:47 AM

lets say, Shouldn't force it

#8
Red Rose
Said
On: 10/3/2006 9:52:33 AM

yes, Islam traeated women as jewels, but the problem in applying these rules in our real life while many ignore it.regard Al Hijab point i agree with you, i consider it choice because morals,good intention,kind heart is the most important than phyisical appearance.

#9
Rasha
Said
On: 10/3/2006 9:58:57 AM

Qwider :'( you stole my post i was just planning to write a simmilar post i even told 7ala about it!

I hate you

#10
Reem
Said
On: 10/3/2006 10:58:39 AM

I agree with every letter you said Qwaider, but i only have one comment, the things you listed fall under "Islamic" civilization not "Arab" civilization. Ideally speaking,They should be the same as the Arab world is a Muslim world. But in these tough days, arabs do not implment one tenth of islam, they choose the rules that appeal to them and implement it under the name of islam. Which ofcourse does not convey real Islam. And that's where the misunderstadnings and disappreciation of our great religion comes. We cann't expect poeple to understad, respect and implement Islam while we ourselves don't.

#11
The Observer
Said
On: 10/3/2006 10:59:02 AM

Qwaider! Are you comparing recent western situation to Arabic one, or 50 years old situation to our current situation, or to our situation before 1400 years?

No one denies that at one point we dominated the whole world. We have created a great civilization that lasted hundred of years, but sorry man, we are no longer in the lead, the Western world passed us in terms of human rights. We are keeping on going back 1400 years ago trying to revive old priciples instead of taking the good of what the world reached and build on it.

Yes, our women may had more benefits 1400 years ago than other women around the world, but now, sorry, we are far behind. Our women has less rights than any other women in the west.

It is one thing to be proud of our history, while it is another thing to keep on living it while others move on.

#12
Qwaider
Said
On: 10/3/2006 11:48:34 AM

Actually TheObserver, I'm comparing 1400 year ago Islam with 50 year ago.
Compare these days west with 1400 years ago Islam? And Muslim women STILL come on top. with only a fraction of that long list being really implemented in the west, example? Dowry, financial support, alimony, child custody ..etc etc etc

Yes, they might have a different set of "rights" in the west these days, but they're by no means match to 1400 year ago Islam

What do you think?

#13
TheSage
Said
On: 10/3/2006 12:24:39 PM

I totally agree with you Qwaider, this is an awesome post

#14
esizzle
Said
On: 10/3/2006 7:16:18 PM

"I've said it before ... I trade places with an Arab women ... In a heartbeat ... "

There are surgeons who can arrange that, and you're already in the US. Of course I am sure you find the idea of a man becoming a woman somewhat degrading and maybe even offensive. So I'll repeat your own advice again: people will never learn to appreciate how great what they have ... until they see how horrible it is otherwise.

#15
The Observer
Said
On: 10/3/2006 8:01:31 PM

I think that western women do have a set of rights that surpass what we had 1400 years ago.

Dont get me wrong, I am not picking on Islam, but in terms of equality women in the west have:
1. Equal value of their testemonial in court. In Islam we have 2 women against one man.
2. In marriage, men can marry up to 4 women at the same time, while in the west this can't happen.
3. Inheritance, who said women can't inherit in the west? Daughters and sons follow the same rule. Daughters don't get half what the son take unless it is written in a will.
4. In some Islamic countries women still dont have the right to vote, or be part in the parliament.
5. In the name of protection, we dominate our women. Controlling their freedom of chosing anything from their dressing to their ideas.

1400 years ago, women needed men custody. We were not as civilized as today where women can make money and live alone without the need of any man to take their lead.

#16
Qwaider
Said
On: 10/3/2006 9:37:48 PM

ESizzle, I'm not ready to go that far out for it, but if I was a woman, I wouldn't mind it at all. In fact I would be proud to be an Arab and a Muslim women.... now I would be butt ugly ... but hey :) looks aren't everything.

The Observer, allow me to state my side on your argument, hopefully you will see my point regarding it as well. I'm going to match the points number by number:
1. 50 years ago in the west, Women's testimony wasn't even allowed. Along with the Negros and lesser humans (from their point of view). Now there are only certain things that you will need 2 women for 1 man testimony. And those things like Marriage and proving adultery. While if she witnesses a Murder, Hers is just as good as the Male.
2. Man has to provide to 4 wives Before he can get married to them. I have no problem with that. It's better to see a man having 4 wives and not see him seeking prostitutes and strippers. That is in a way a punishment for him on his choice since with marriage comes women rights and children ...etc Instead of him contracting hepatitis C or Aids from Ginger and passing it on to his poor wife. And No, women can't have more than one, because this would mean the there will be a mix up in the ancestry of the children, and thereby thier inheritance (to mention a single example) She may seek divorce if she feels she needs more.
3. Women were not allowed to inherit in the west, they were deemed a lesser species and not worthy of having their own property or money.
4. Voting is not part of Islamic faith therefore it has absolutely nothing against it. In fact, women in the political Arena were considered just like men. The gave Bayaa to the prophet, and were what we would call "Activists" today ... Rulers, Preachers and many other things...

Look if people are depriving women from their rights because of their sexism, that's not the rule of Islam it's HUMAN abuse and I add my voice to Esizzle and ask for it to stop!

#17
Roba
Said
On: 10/3/2006 10:59:46 PM

With all due respect to your opinion of course, but as far as I'm concerned, what happened sixy years or 1400 years ago is completely neglibible.
In matters as important and as simple as equality, I care for MY moment- my present, my future, the future of my daughters.

But that aside, there is no equality in the Arab world, and there never was. I never mentioned Islam, although I personally think that all religions are sexist, but I'm not about to sit and argue about religion because sara7a waja3 ras ma ilo awal ma ilo akher. As for Arab traditions, completely foregoing West Ammanite tradition where there is a certain level of equality, and completely foregoing Jordan which is far better off than other Arab countries, a lot of our Arab traditions are complete zbaleh.

Take for example traditions in the Gulf, where it is 3eib up until this day for women to work. Take for example tradition in Egypt, where 80% of women are put through the savageness of circumscision. Take it on a more local scene, where women are refused to be granted citizenship. How it's ok for a guy to hang out with girls but not ok for girls to hang out with guys. Honor crimes! Arab society is reap with sexist double standards.

Does this have to do with religion? No. It is Arab culture, and although Islam frowned on a lot of these double standards, it is hard to wade out the culture from society, even with religion.

As for you dear Qwaider, I get offended when you keep saying that you would trade your position with an Arab woman any day, as if it's easier than a man's. In this day and age and in our countries, in order to have enough income to support a family, both parents need to work. In most cases, the women work, cook, clean, bare, and take care of the kids. The men only work. Understand, I dislike it when a woman chooses not to work in order to stay at home and take care of her family, but statements such as "I'd trade my life for an Arab woman any day" undermine women's role in society, and to me, that's just what I meant by "Arab thoughts".

Quick note: I really don't want to argue.

#19
Qwaider
Said
On: 10/4/2006 1:15:22 AM

Take it easy guys. I didn't mean any disrespect. At all. In fact I meant absolutely the opposite. I meant that I honor Arab women so much that I wouldn't mind being one of them. Not in derogatory way not at all.
I was raised in a house with 3 women, A mother and a Grandmother. And to say the least, I learned how to love, accept and respect women in my life. Sure, You everyone has every right to question my intentions and my credentials on the matter. But what I am proposing is what "should" be the case and by no means what the reality is
Take the EXCELLENT example that Roba made about women granting their family Citizenships. I agree that there is a great deal of injustice in the Arab world nowadays, but it's not fueled or driven by Islam it's some people's sick mentalities (that quite frankly gives us all, as mean bad name)

Now, I'm not sure if the numbers you mentioned are accurate (80% is a huge) But even 1 is way too many. And I would wholeheartedly like to see such practices eradicated from the face of the planet. Is this Islamic? No, is this even Arabic? No.

Anyway Roba, it appears that I got you upset. When my intention was anything but that. I spent most of my time in western societies (even in the Arab world) and I spent the later third of my life (8 years) in the US and the west in general. Talking about what things SHOULD be like is the first step we all take towards making thing right for all of us

#20
The Observer
Said
On: 10/4/2006 9:08:59 AM

Roba! You put it perfectly. Thank you. I got missed up rushing into replying using some examples cristising Islam while as you said most religions are sexist. Christianity or Judaism wasn't really better than Islam in this department, they just evolved to accomodate human needs.

Qwaider, I am honestly lost up in this discussion. When I give examples that western women benefit of more rights these days, you say they didnt have those rights 50 years ago. I wasnt comparing 50 years ago in the US vs 1400 years ago in Arabia. I am interesting in comparing current times. You claimed that 1400 years ago in Arabia was better than the US now, I disagree with that (the points of Now, not 50 years ago).

Every point above is a topic in itself. I find each point to be so interesting to discuss. You may want to create a post for each one so that we can discuss it fully. I will try to answer briefly now:
1. I was talking about current time. Women in the west has all the rights to testimony, and they are considered equal whether they have witnessed an adultary case or anything else.
2. Some men do have the money to provide 4 wives, and eventhough Islam states that he has to treat them equally, still a lot of men just benefit from their right of marrying the 4 without paying their obligations.
Besides, the whole idea of marrying someone else is degrading to women. You won't like to share your wife with another man, would you? If she can't conceive children, would that make it ok? It wont mix ancestory then.
Can we still talk about ancestory mixing at this era of time? Current DNA tests can tell clearly who is the father. Now if you want to give men a right to polygamy, you have to give it to women as well. There is no excuse.
And if a man can't hold his urges to keep himself faithful for one woman, it doesnt mean that it is better to allow him to marry another one instead of going have sex with some bitch!
3. Women are allowed to inherit in the west now, and with equal amounts of men, right?
4. Yes voting is not an Islamic thing. I am not critisizing Islam in particual, but some of the cultural inheritance we got. My point is that we can't deny that women in the West benefit of more rights than we have currently in the Arab world. You can't hide the sun in your hands. It is clear that we are still lacking behind.

#21
Qwaider
Said
On: 10/4/2006 9:32:51 AM

TheObserver, I agree, each one of those points is actually a whole subject on it's own. Now, although I agree with some of what you said, You took a specific context and went from there. Allow me to demonstrate,
1. In the west, Adultery is not a crime, even though it's one of the 10 commandments. There is no "punishment" for it. So testimony wise, it's a moot point.
2. Degrading or not that's the rule, it is allowed, discouraged but allowed. The example I said about ancestry is just an example not the main reason. The rule says, if a man needs more extra he can marry, if a woman wants it, she can get a divorce.
It's better to marry someone than to commit adultery, (in the eyes of Islam) while it's not in the eyes of the west. Different point of views. Now the fact that some men abuse their rights, that has nothing to do with the rule.
By the way, If a women feels degrading that her husband remarried, she has the right to have a divorce.
3. True, they are allowed and with equal rights, BUT her brother is not responsible for her if she spends all her inheritance and needs a single dollar to eat. In Islam ... He's responsible for her. Now since part of his inheritance is going to go for her anyway, it's only logical that he gets more. If he abuses it, then he's violating the rule.
4. You keep repeating that they have more, when I show you and tell you about the 18 year old who is thrown outside of the house (because she's an legal now) and can provide for her self. Yes, that's abuse of the law, but you are taken the abuse on the Islam side as a proof, then why can't this qualify as proof too?

We are lagging behind not because of the religious rules, but rather because of the PEOPLE who chose to violate these rules. And in the absence of a body that enforces these rules the issue becomes even worse

To give you a small example, many of my American friends male and female are totally AMAZED by these kinds of rights, and many stated that they would have stayed home if they had the choice or even the chance. They had no idea how women are regarded and how they are considered a man's honor. Since this word lost it's meaning in the west.
It's not mandated supervision, for all someone cares a woman can still leave her custodial house and go out and do what ever she wants. But people abuse that as well, stating that it's their right to oppress her. When It's not, especially after she achieves adulthood

#22
The Observer
Said
On: 10/4/2006 1:50:31 PM

Okay, let's continue this :)

1. Lets drop it as it is a moot point.
2. See, we have a double a standard in treating men and women. He can marry 2 legally while she can get a divorce only! Why cant she get 2? Sorry, but I find it a bit of misjust.
3. Why not make it the other way around? I mean the woman to be responsible for her brother. And who said that we have a rule here that brothers have to take care of their sisters if she spent all her share of her inheritance? This is a human issue. It depends on how family relations take place which has nothing to do with the east or the west.
4. So what if 18 years old girl is thrown outside her home in the west to be taught to earn her own living? They threw there young men as well at the same age. This is a totally different discussion. No one want to see their children starving. It is a social habit to make youth learn to be independence. Wish we have something like that here.

So now you admit that we are lagging behind? I am glad you did. This is what I wanted to say when I first reply to you. My intend wasnt to critisize Islam, and yes, most rules are violated, maybe we ought to have more modernize rules that can be harder to violate in order to give our women more rights to be in bar with those in the west.

#23
Qwaider
Said
On: 10/4/2006 2:04:13 PM

2. Who said it was just? Even the Quran said that. Yet, it's allowed. Necessities govern in the case and allow this. Each has a choice. Either accept the second wife, or get a divorce. At least the choice is there
3. I agree, if women accept the obligation, I don't mind. But why give up a privilege?
4. Would you allow this to happen to your daughter?Sure, why not... have her thrown out, with predators waiting ... ending up a teenage mom .... People in the west are going CRAZY over this, and trying to find solutions ... and sadly we are embracing it ... how sad!

We're lagging because of the ideologies we are trying to embrace degrading us and leaving us without identity anymore ... just grotesque copies of the west...
The soul of the religion and tradition is to do these things without someone policing thing on you. And more importantly abandoning things like "if no one knows, then it's OK" which is so apparent everywhere

When you stop at a red traffic light at 3 AM when there is no one in the street, out of respect of the law not fear of the ticket. Imagine if we had this traffic red light in our mind every time we're about to do something wrong...
We can't blame our situation on the rules, but on ourselves NOT following them