« I hate it when even Muslims get it wrong

Men get their children LAST

By: Qwaider

On:Saturday, September 30, 2006 9:20:16 AM
In:Thoughts
Viewed: (7331) times

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I was having quite an organic discussion with the honorable, Oula Farawati and this topic came into the discussion. I decided to research it a little bit and came up with some astonishing findings, that made me really think that I want to challenge this norm.

I'm not only challenging the law here, but also the Shariaa. I'm not going to blindly accept this as "Women naturally can provide for their kids". If we're so diligent in scoring more rights to women, here is one case where women have way more rights than they should. Child custody.

The Jordanian law, explicitly states that, in case of divorce. The mother gets the custody of the children, pure and simple.

Even if the mother agrees to relinquish this right, she has the right to "change her mind". And this is the only case by law that people are allowed to "change their mind" after a deal was struck.

Sadly enough, if the mother dies, or gets married, the custody of the children goes to ...... HER MOTHER can you imagine that? Up to this point the father is only asked to provide for the children without actually having the custody. And under Jordanian law, the age of custody goes all the way to 15 years, thanks to some recent changes in violation to the Islamic Shariaa.

And I can’t but sit and wonder, if the Father, didn't even participate in the raising of his own flesh and blood, gets to see him when he arranges visitation plan, and can’t interfere with anything in his life, Then what kind of a relationship would he have with his 15 year old teen ager who's been under the wing of the mother, her mother, her aunt for 15 years.

I'm 100% with women getting equal rights, but that doesn't always mean getting more rights in this specific case it might mean getting less rights. Or simply serving justice to the flocks of fathers out there

The Shariaa, (the origin of the Jordanian law on this matter) states that children remain with the mother till 7 or 9 years old. The Jordanian law –recently- was amended to be more strict about the matter and increased the age to 15.

Personally, I think there is some hypocrisy here, we're fighting day and night for women to get more rights and forget that in certain aspects, women are getting more

Other cases where there is discrimination that favor women are, Dowry both before and after marriage, alimony, child support, you name it.

I am clearly contesting this paradigm because :

Men do not suffer less during a divorce
Men need and love their children just as women do
Men can take care of their children just as women do
Men sustain more financial damage than women (financially) because, he's the bread winner of the house. So most of the financial loss is incurred by the man
With the exception of breastfeeding, there is absolutely nothing a woman can provide for her child that a man can’t. And in that sense, the age of custody need not go beyond 2 years. (if and only if the mother agrees to breast feed for those two years). Beyond that, it should be studied. But having the Law or the Shariaa give this blindly to women is bogus.
Children do not need their mother more than their father.
Children's welfare emotionally and physically is not guaranteed either way

Get this, if the man proves the mother to be unworthy (for example after she gets married, or being improsoned or due to physical, ethical, or behavioral reasons, the later 3 requiring 4 witnesses at least)… Anyway, even if all of that is proven, guess what? HER MOTHER gets the custody! And if her mother doesn’t then her aunt, her sister, her grandmother… THEN his mother … but Men get their children LAST…

And lastly, if what ever the reason for her to lose the custody is removed (like being released from Jail), she automatically gets the custody back ... how great is that?

There are no winners in a divorce, and the biggest losers are always the innocent children. With all of that in mind, and looking at what the society keeps saying about how sad women are after a divorce, and how they lose a lot, I think men suffer just as much, mostly because of issues like child custody where men, come last ....Seriously, men get their children Last.

How sad

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« I hate it when even Muslims get it wrong

The first breath »

Memories....

#1
Hareega
Said
On: 10/1/2006 5:11:36 AM

I have to disagree ona few points. First, in most cases the woman has no word when it comes to divorce. She can be divorced anytime and it can be all the man's decision.

Women do suffer after divocre, really suffer in our society and their chances of getting married again become slim, unlike the man.

#2
Qwaider
Said
On: 10/1/2006 5:22:32 AM

What do you mean "has no saying"? What about Khol3? She doesn't have a saying in that?
There is also Ibra2. And if the husband of abusive she can get a divorce by law. we need to stop imagining see el sayyed saying "Roo7i winti Tal2" ... And Imagine Fifi Abdo saying "Talla2ni ya Gaber, a7san wideeni la ashara7ak"

Next, what makes you so sure a Man doesn't suffer as much after a divoce? Emotionally and physically. With one additional factor, financially.

A recent statistic (I saw this a year ago in Alrai, so don't ask me to send a link, but I remember it) Showing that Divorced women have actually better chances of getting married compared to never before married woman. I have no idea why

And finally, how is all of this related to a Man's right to have the custody of his children?

#3
Hareega
Said
On: 10/1/2006 5:41:29 AM

The Jordanian Parliament which is 95% men and the other 5% consists of women who are good only in cooking maglooba has voted AGAINST qanoon el khale3.
Men suffer from divorce, but I have known many cases where the man, out of the blue, decides to divorce the lady. I believe you've read that study mentioned above but living in Jordan for 25 years I can tell the stigma attached to any divorced women.

I don't support the law being blind regarding custody, each case has to be seen individually, but to say that men are not getting their rights in the marriage/divorce cyclke is unreal, at least in Jordan.

#4
Qwaider
Said
On: 10/1/2006 5:49:19 AM

El khol3 mawjood in the Shari3a, What they talking about is making it a civil law. What difference does it make when the end result is the same?
Do you think a man, ANY MAN can continue to be married to ANY WOMAN, if she doesn't want to? come on... Only in movies and television drama.
The fact is, Women can (and out of the blue) ask and get divorce. It might not be as swift and fast as men, but the option is there.

Last time I was in Amman, (January) I met 3 divorced women, all living the life, they have their kids, they have their lives, jobs AND they're being paid to raise their own kids... (on top of what the kids need). The laws are so in favor of women nowadays that men are seriously being discriminated against.

My good friend, it takes 2 to tango, and only one to make a disaster

Allah la ywa2i3 7ada

#5
abdullah
Said
On: 10/1/2006 7:56:26 AM

Samer,

We cannot contest any law of sharee3a that has "Nass" supporting it, unless the interpretation of that is faulty.
In this case I thing there was a transgression when they rose the age to 15. Men should contest that law because it has no basis from Sharee3a as I remembered researching the issue long ago.

If the woman is not fit to be a mother, the sequence you mentioned applies. I disagree myself when it comes to custody of a girl past the age of 9 by a not-fit mother. I agree there is a degree of unfairness in the law, and it should be addressed as other laws that are not fair to the woman should be reviewed and rectified.
Justice is important in this matter as the kids will carry the name of the father, and he should have a say so in their upbringing.

Unfortunately there are so many laws that are enacted with no sense of fairness to one side or the other. We men love our children as much, and passed certain age they should go back to their father.

The treaty that Jordan has signed in regard of certain women rights some of them are unfair Islamicly, yet they were imposed on us in Jordan, to the point that the American system now is more fair to the man than the Jordanian system. It seems that they cannot get their act together and be balanced and fair for both parties. They either go extreme with the woman or extreme with the man.
I am sure that many men are suffering the separation away from their beloved kids till the custody of the mother is over. Islam gurantee that neither side should suffer from a custody judgement.
At age 15 the mother would have indoctrinated her kids against their dad and his family, and how the man will deal with that??
WA ETHA 7AKAMTUM BAINA ANNAS FA7KUMU BEL3ADL.
WE DO ASK FOR JUSTICE for both parties of a divorce.
WE do not want women to be dealt with unjustly; at the same time we should be offered the same courtesy, and fairness.

#6
Rasha
Said
On: 10/1/2006 2:25:21 PM

Qwider I recommend this book to you ...it's great

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#7
thecaller
Said
On: 10/1/2006 6:14:28 PM

السلام عليكم..
سبحان الله..كنت عايزه اكتب عن الموضوع ده بالذات بس اجلته عشان كاتبه موضوع جامد عايزاه ياخد حقه مع البلوجرزيه:)
انا معاك..في ان الاب محتاج ولاده وولاده محتاجين له اكتر..
و راى ان الطلاق مش لازم ابدا يكون نهاية ابوه و بنوه..الاب الكويس اللى بيحب ولاده يقدر يديهم حنان حتى لو مش معاهم على طول..
لكن الحقيقه يا قويدر ان الاب المهتم اوى ده قليل قليل قليل..
و يا خساره..عادة بيبقى نصيبه واقع فى ام مش فاهمه مصلحة ولادها فين فبيتعذب و بيتعذبوا..
لكن من تجربه قريبه منى..
فيه اب بعد ما عمل كل حاجه يكره بيها مراته و اضطرت تسيبه..اصبحت الست دى بتتحايل عليه يشوف ولاده مش راضى..بل و مبيصرفش عليهم مليم..
هنا بقى حتى القانون لو فى صفه..ما لوش لازمه..
بعدين الشرع ما منعش الاب يشوف ولاده زى ما هو عايز..بس خلى الام تبقى المسؤل الاساسى عنهم..
يا قويدر انا لو نمت تلات اربع ساعات باليوم..بصحا فيهم على الاقل اربع مرات..اشرب..ااكل..اشطف لو حد دخل التواليت!!
طيب..و المفترض ان سن الحضانه بتكون فيه الام متفرغه للولاد..الاب اللى بيشتغل حيعمل ايه..اما زيادة السن لخمستاشر سنه فده حكم بشر وآخ من حكم البش على راى المسلسل الخليجى!!
الناس هى اللى بتبوظ الدنيا..مش الشرع..
كل واحد له حق بيستغله اسوأ استغلال..
ربنا يعدينا منها على خير..

#8
noooooo!
Said
On: 10/2/2006 3:59:36 AM

Men suffer AS MUCH as women in divorce? You said it yourself, the man is typically the breadwinner of the hosuehold, so what do you think the financial siutation of the woman will be after the divorce? Zero, right? As you said, there are no winners or losers. And men and women should have equal rights in everything, including their children. But I disagree with your comparison between men and women's suffering!

#9
Qwaider
Said
On: 10/2/2006 4:05:43 AM

Actually, men suffer more financially. It's not their fault that the women can't provide for her own.
Financially, not only did the man had to pay alimony, child support...etc etc ..etc (for a woman that doesn't even live with him anymore) She is viewed as the victim, as you have just stated

We have to stop thinking in the classical sense. Men don't welcome divorce, and it's a huge financial burden on them in additional to emotional and social (just as much as it is for a woman) (and I don't want to say more)

#10
lana
Said
On: 5/31/2007 12:55:58 AM

i am sure the best thing Islam did to women (besides all the other good things already given) that it gave the woman the right of her custody to her children, coz men can never feel the real love and care for their children as the women does, for what i believe is men can forget all about their children just for spending some time with any passerby, while women are known to sacrifice their lives for their children,
finaly, i am sure you cannot judge islam !!!! islam judges you!!!

#11
Qwaider
Said
On: 5/31/2007 1:10:19 AM

Lana,
Allow me to say very respectfully, that you know diddly squat about this matter
Some women are great, some women are good, some are OK and some are VERY bad.

It's really simplistic to think only women sacrifice for their children and to assume that ALL men are bad. Is this how you view your father?

I just happen to think that there is more to this matter than meats the eye and the man should have the custody right after the natural mother, not after HER mother!

I highly recommend that you read the article more and try to see the facts in it. Because as there are men who forget about their children, there are women who EAT their children

#12
lana
Said
On: 5/31/2007 1:16:02 AM

well, Qwaider, I was never against men, and i love and respect my father and brothers (they are men) which means am not against men, but i don't know why since al jahilieh, it is accepted that the man have the right to divorce his wife whenever he wants and for no reason, and he can even marry another woman and forget about his wife's dignity and no one judges him, meanwhile now when finally women has got the right of defending their dignity you are against them, i agree not all men are bad and not all women are good, but at least now with the new law good women can defend their children and their dignity from bad husbands

#13
Qwaider
Said
On: 5/31/2007 1:27:39 AM

I really don't know how you can relate the two issues here. One is about divorce and the second is about custody. True one leads to the other. But that doesnt mean that they're the same thing
If you focus and attempt to not get side tracked by divorce "issues". You will notice that it's NOT FAIR that the man doesn't get the custody when HER MOTHER gets it... (Read what I'm saying carefully) when the woman gets the children and decides to dedicate her life for their welfare. Then that's admirable, and should probably be rewarded with her getting the custody. BUT when she goes off and gets remarried (which is completely her right) the FATHER should gain the custody not HER MOTHER.

Even to begin with, why can't the father get the custody right then? It relates to your argument about divorce. It's the price that men have to pay for the divorce

Cool thing is... Even though Divorce has always been given as a right for the man. I didn't see EVERYEONE running around divorcing their wives!

#14
lana
Said
On: 5/31/2007 1:29:32 AM

Hi Qwaidar,
I may be really very late not only here but in all the articles, I told you i happened to enter your site by coincidence, i was actually searching the net to find some answers about the islamic law in jordan regarding divorce coz am trying to help a friend of mine abused by her husband to find a solution ! when i read what you wrote about your disagreement of the new law giving the mother the right of the custody for her children! well, she is the one who gets pregnant, she is the one who felt her baby's heartbeat ! her baby is a part of her soul and body, no one have the right to take it from her ! those who eats their babies are weird cases and have different soluttions but the normal case is that women are more emotional and more devoted to their children (normal women i mean)

#15
lana
Said
On: 5/31/2007 1:41:18 AM

maybe its because you are living in the states and not in jordan thats why you don't hear much about what usually happens here with men, they may divorce the wife for no reason, maybe for the sake of a new girlfriend or a younger woman or anything, and imagine that the father in that case takes the custody of his children his new wife may turn the childrens life upside down, while if the mother gets married the children goes to her mother ( well, am sure you agree that she have the right to get married and in that case her mother will take care of the childern because she will sure be more related to her daughter's children than a stepmother can be) if they goes to the father..believe me am a mother and a real mother, no one can love and protect a child as much as a REAL NORMAL mother

#16
Qwaider
Said
On: 5/31/2007 1:47:55 AM

Lana, I moved your comment here because I think it's more relevant to this subject than the other one.

Now, there are always sacrifices on both sides. The father also provided the seed of life that saw the light through the mother. He was with her through it all.

For some people, the worst thing that ever happened to them was their mothers!

The (Normal) thing is that both male and female care about their children.

As for your friend. The Jordanian Law somewhat sides with women more than the Shariah, even though it's driven from Hanafi Mathhab.

What would you like to know?? About Khol3 in Jordan?

It's allowed for a woman to sort of buy-out of a marriage by paying to get a divorce. She needs to pay what the man has paid for dowry and agree to not take any of her rights. (which are considerable)

But if she can prove that she's been abused. Then the judge can divorce her AND she will get her full rights even possibly compensation for her trauma.

If it doesn't fall under the two cases above. She has the right to do "Ibra2" which is basically she requests divorce, he doesn't want it, yet he doesn't want to stand in her way to get the divorce. So she will agree to give up all her rights to gain the divorce.

PS: Children custody is not her right to give up. Even if she agreed to give up the custody to gain the divorce. The divorce will in fact occur, while the condition is void. So she will continue to have the children

This is the ONLY case of agreement that could be nullified by the woman changing her mind. If you think this is fair. Tell me how you would feel if it happened to your brother!

#17
Qwaider
Said
On: 5/31/2007 1:51:53 AM

Lana
Men don't just wake up one morning seeking to divorce thier wives. That's stereo typing at it's ugliest way.
And here's what the man has to do if he "happens" to decide that he wants to divorce his wife:
1) Pay mo2akhar
2) Pay Nafaka (alimony)
3) Pay Nafaket 3iddeh
4) Pay unknown sum in mot3a (for talaq ta3assofi) [Equivalen of nafake of 3 years]
5) Pay Child support because he will...
6) lose the custody of children to the wife, her mother, her sister, her aunt and THEN HIS mother [In order]

If that doesn't sound like enough deterrent for men ... I don't think what does

#18
Qwaider
Said
On: 5/31/2007 1:58:31 AM

RE: Real normal mothers:
It appears that we're putting way too many "prerequisites" to make that statement true
1) the step mother is bad
2) The father is DEFINITELY going to get married
3) The mother is actually normal
4) The mother is actually good
5) The mother is not going to get married to someone who is...
6) not going to molest the children!

For god's sake... give me a break ... as I Said, if the mother is going to sacrifice for the sake of her children, she might as well sacrifice while continuing to be under the -so called- abusive husband!

#19
lana
Said
On: 5/31/2007 2:01:26 AM

i agree with you, but still believe me, here most of the men (especially young men) recently with the new open society and freedom and approval for all the facilities of entertainment for men in jordan, divorce is increasing, and men are really divorcing women for no reason just for having more freedom to enjoy the new facilities, that's why i agree with the new law of khul3, as for what comes after divorce like nafaka and mo2akhar etc... its peanuts because in that case the law is still by the side of the man, he can pay by installments and what he pays is a very little amount of money, most of the women usually turns their back to the money that they can get from their x... so all they can really get is the custody of their children and the chance to protect them

#20
Qwaider
Said
On: 5/31/2007 2:08:27 AM

Well, I don't think that is true. Allow me to say why.
What affects men ALSO affects women. Even if it was with a smaller percentage. Some women DO request divorce to get this freedom. It's the trend of the new age.
Now for her Mo2akhar excuse me, but that can be in millions if she wanted it to be! Right? So don't say peanuts. As for Alimony, child support and the rest. It will be exactly in the same range as she was living in... but here's the deal...
WHY should a man pay AFTER the divorce has happened? It's OVER, it's marriage at will, then WHY is he still paying!!? I personally see that as a penalty on men. Why doesn't the WOMAN pay after the divorce? Because she will be affected and he won't?!

You're talking as if there are queues of young maidens just waiting for his highness to get divorced to snatch him!! :) [Although I have to admit that internally I like that idea :D]

#21
lana
Said
On: 5/31/2007 2:22:43 AM

but as far as i know and you know too, that when the woman asks for her divorce she will have to give up her mo2akhar and her nafaka, then he will only have to pay nafaka for his children but she is the one who will be taking care of them and supporting them meanwhile he will be back to freedom and start looking for another woman to spend his money on her. so his children (i believe) have the priority to use his money than a new wife or a friend for entertainment!
don't you agree with me that most of the men after spending years with their wives suddenly decides to find a new younger one to start a new life with, meanwhile women stuck to their husbands even if they became old or sick? well at least now with the new law women can get rid of those husbands and still keep their children and have the husbands pay their nafaka !! of course am not talking about all men am talking about those who doesn't deserve their children ! i know some women may use this law just to go back to their freedom or just to go in the wrong direction !! (lakoul rule there is shawaz) but usually the women were those who always have to pay the price, so its about time that the men feels the fear that the women used to live with since ages (the fear that her husband may divorce her anytime for no reason and find herself thrown in the street) its about time that he knows islam gave the right to the NORMAL devoted wives to fight for their dignity and safety

#22
lana
Said
On: 5/31/2007 2:43:18 AM

Qwaide, i have to add something, maybe you noticed that i was a bit aggresive first when i wrote my comment! the reason is i felt that you are against women, so execuse me..i should have appreciated the opinion freedom more.
as an answer to what you wrote in one of your comments that no man will live with a woman if she doesn't want him only in films! no you are wrong, before the khul3 law, the men used to keep their unwanted wives and start a new life somewhere with someone new (so as not to pay the nafaka and mo2akhar and so as not to give her the chance of a new life) while the old wife is kept in the dark helpless and sad coz u know she can't get divorce unless he offers it to her, so see how fair it is now with the new law that women can get their freedom back when they are misstreated ! i don't agree with those women who use this law just for their own benefits or wrong intentions, I only agree with those who use it for the sake of their dignity and self respect! do you know that in egypt this law was taken into consideration after the well known film of Faten hamama (ureed hallan) ??? if you haven't seen this film (though its an old one) i advise that you watch it, to see how much women are usually misstreated

#23
Qwaider
Said
On: 5/31/2007 2:47:04 AM

Lana, the custody never changed. It was ALWAYS for the mother (now and in the past) the new law increases the age of Custody to about 15.

How is the woman paying the price? because, last I checked, divorced women seam to have a better chance at getting married than single women.

There is no such a thing as "No reason" and that goes BOTH WAYS
A woman can choose to divorce her husband, "just like that" with "no reason" too!

From what I see, the men pay dearly for divorce. So does the women. There are no winners here, but many losers

#24
Qwaider
Said
On: 5/31/2007 2:53:32 AM

Khul3 only added that a woman can divorce a man at a whim. But IF a man did ANYTHING to hurt her, she can ask the judge to divorce her. There is no stopping that. (it's not new)

I loved "Ureed hallan" but .. that assumes that a man REALLY wants to keep a woman JUST to humiliate her! How untrue is that? There are no "Pure evil" people.
The movies have always portrayed women as the victims, when You and I know that it's NOT ALWAYS the case.