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The weird side of homosexuality

  • By: Qwaider

  • On:Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:53:23 PM
  • In:Thoughts
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    Things I don't get, no matter how hard I tried to rationalize...

    First, I'm not against homosexuality, I believe everyone is free to make that a choice and I don't want to get in discussions regarding that being a choice or not. I think it is. And I will not change my mind about it (Just like priesthood where people choose to be celibate)

    I'm also all for giving rights to homosexuals. Even allowing them to get married. But not adoption (Just I don't agree to give such a right to single parents). I think it's a job that needs two people. One male and one female.

    What I also believe is that if someone has gone through transgender operation, then he/she becomes the new gender. And gets the full rights (and obligations) of the new gender.

    Now with my disclaimers out of the way, (since this is one topic that simply can't be written without a lot of disclaimers), here comes my thoughts..

    Why do we find Lesbian women trying to be so manly? Especially when you notice how they appear to be doing the testosterone filled acts to please their feminine lesbian partner? Does this mean that those girly lesbians like traits of men? Then why turn to women? It just doesn't make any sense.

    Of all the homosexuals I've encountered in my life, not a single one had a good family, or proper upraising. Don't get me wrong. They were great people, and had very successful careers with a huge potential with a great future. But not a single one of them came from a proper nuclear family. They either had no fathers. Or absent fathers. Careless mothers. Many struggled with addiction in the family. Domestic violence. Most hate their own parents, if they knew them.

    Is this a common denominator in all homosexuals? I really can't generalize because I haven't seen all. But this is what I'm noticing and at a very large percentage.

    Is this aspect of rebellion against the parents the driving force for many of the homosexuals?

    I have no doubt that there are homosexuals who have no issues what so ever yet they choose this lifestyle. But for the majority, wouldn't that qualify them to be categorized as having a form of disorder?

    And this raises a another question, does this mean that people can be brought up to without being homosexuals just by proper raising?

    Too many questions!

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    i don't think its a natural act being a homosexuall. when ever i read about them they are all born in a disfunctional family absent parent, abusive father and some even got raped while being kids, i guess we have a responcibility to help cure them of this act and help them to live the normal life of a man/ female marrying the opposite gender .
    as from a religious view am against all kind of homosexuallity and the story off lut people is an enoght proof for me that it is a wrong act
    • #2
    • Qwaider
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 3/24/2009 11:30:04 PM
    • SpamScore=[-49.29]
    You're right, many come from dysfunctional families or bad experiences. But I don't think we're in a position to judge them or demonize them. They're free as long as it's what they want to do. Away from my family. They're human too and have rights.
    I think people's choice is their own. Even if religiously it's not acceptable. It's one of those cases where we can bend the rules a little bit and let it go because it doesn't hurt or affect other people in anyway.
    • #3
    • Maju
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    • Said
    • On: 3/25/2009 4:13:31 AM
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    There is strong mounting evidence that genetic factors are behind homosexuality (maybe more strongly in males than females). Homosexuality also happens in the animal realm anyhow (even male swans nesting together, albeit with no eggs, of course) and again the forsenic data suggests a natural "feminization" of the brains of the homosexual animal males.

    Probably this is not the only factor anyhow, as this could only cover a specific kind of homosexuality (the most archetypical male one, obviously) and certainly it says nothing about bisexuality, nor apparently much about homosexuality in women.
    • #4
    • Marvin
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    • On: 3/25/2009 5:06:28 AM
    • SpamScore=[-0.37]
    If there is a genetic component to homosexuality, it's interesting that it doesn't winnow itself out, given that most homosexuals don't breed. (They call heterosexuals "breeders." I think that's amusing.) I think some avowed homosexuals are making a deliberate lifestyle choice. Others are truly compelled. None of them seem to be very happy. It must be difficult to be trapped in the "wrong" gender's body. I think transgender surgery is usually a last-ditch attempt to feel "normal," and it seems to fail most of the time.
    • #5
    • Hareega
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 3/25/2009 5:33:12 AM
    • SpamScore=[-0.85]
    There are some lesbians who are not short-haired and actually I was shocked to know they were lesbians. One of them is ellen Degeners' wife, Portia whatever.
    • #6
    • Qwaider
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 3/25/2009 6:03:02 AM
    • SpamScore=[-40.48]
    Maju
    Thanks for your comment. But I find that hard to believe. There are no such evidence and there isn't any genetic factor. This is exactly the same kind of justifications drug and alcohol abusers use to justify their problems.
    I'm not sure what feminization means. But I don't think it's in anyway scientific.

    Marvin,
    that's a very interesting thought. How can there be a homosexual gene if homosexuals can't breed? Very interesting idea to think about
    I wish there could be more breakthroughs in transgender surgery. To help people who feel trapped to "rectify" whatever is wrong with them and allow them to enjoy a "normal" life (whatever that normal may be)
    So far, the vast majority of the people I've seen appear to be "compelled" to this choice by the hardships or issues they faced growing up

    Hareega
    Yes, absolutely, there are girly lesbians and "manly" lesbians as I can see both. Ellen is probably the male lesbian
    • #7
    • Maju
    • Windows Firefox Browser
    • Said
    • On: 3/25/2009 7:06:02 AM
    • SpamScore=[-0.02]
    May I provide some data to support my claim:

    1. On animal homosexuality (where cultural/social factors should play a much lesser role - if any at all), Wikipedia has a pretty good review. Especially meaningful is the quote from Rosselli et al., 2004:

    Approximately 8% of rams exhibit sexual preferences [that is, even when given a choice] for male partners (male-oriented rams) in contrast to most rams, which prefer female partners (female-oriented rams). We identified a cell group within the medial preoptic area/anterior hypothalamus of age-matched adult sheep that was significantly larger in adult rams than in ewes...

    But obviously this is not limited to sheep: all studied animal species have some homosexuals among them.

    2. Science Daily: "Homosexual Behavior Largely Shaped By Genetics And Random Environmental Factors".

    The findings showed that 35 per cent of the differences between men in same-sex behaviour (that is, that some men have no same sex partners, and some have one or more) is accounted for by genetics. (...) For women, genetics explained roughly 18 per cent of the variation in same-sex behaviour (...)

    3. Science Daily: "Male Homosexuality Can Be Explained Through A Specific Model Of Darwinian Evolution, Study Shows"

    Male homosexuality is thought to be influenced by psycho-social factors, as well as having a genetic component. This is suggested by the high concordance of sexual orientation in identical twins and the fact that homosexuality is more common in males belonging to the maternal line of male homosexuals.

    (...) the interaction of male homosexuality with increased female fecundity within human populations, in a complex dynamic, resulting in the maintenance of male homosexuality at stable and relatively low frequencies, and highlighting the effects of heredity through the maternal line.

    Regards.
    • #8
    • Maju
    • Windows Firefox Browser
    • Said
    • On: 3/25/2009 7:07:59 AM
    • SpamScore=[0.96]

    Ops! There should be hotlinks in the previous post. I used HTML but seems it doesn't work. The links are:

    1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_homosexuality
    2. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080628205430.htm
    3. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080617204459.htm

    • #9
    • Qwaider
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 3/25/2009 8:09:44 AM
    • SpamScore=[-40.52]
    The genetics part and the explanation is highly controversial and completely (and easily) disproved by Darwinian evolution itself. It's simple really. If homosexuality is a genetic it MUST be inherited, however, homosexuals rarely have offspring of their own genes. Which means such mutation would eventually die out IF that was even possible.

    The sociological factors appear to be way more convincing than anything else. It's so powerful and the effects can be seen within a decade compared to evolution which will take many generations to be even remotely relevant. This is purely Darwinian by the way.

    As for animals. We know as a fact that Animals don't have sex for pleasure. So even if some confused, sex crazed ram had sex with another male. This doesn't mean anything to us. Because we really don't know what the ram feels.

    I think many shady studies are there out to remove the guilt commonly associated with homosexuality. Claiming that it's natural, while explaining it with Darwinian abnormalities. So you see the confusing conflict there.

    To me, Homosexuals don't need to explain anything. nor do they need backing from a scientific study to justify their choice. If that's someone's choice and they're at ease with it. Then they shouldn't be ashamed of who they are. That's what they want, and therefore that's the choice they make
    • #10
    • KJ
    • Windows Chrome  Browser
    • Said
    • On: 3/25/2009 8:41:12 AM
    • SpamScore=[-0.14]
    I believe it is a combination of many factors Qwaider. Homosexuals do often get married to the opposite sex and can pass on the gene.

    In psychology I studied that it's not possible [A] gene but rather a tendency. If for instance, the son was born as a second child, and the first being a female, and the mother has not cleaned up completely hormone-wise, or even if she did clean up, the amount of estrogen during the pregnancy may be a factor of determining the tendency.

    Regardless, a tendency is a tendency and it is highly unlikely to develop on its own without the social aspect. The experiences the individual goes through may trigger this tendency in varying degrees. It's easy to classify sexual orientation as strictly gay or strictly hetero, but you will see varying degrees of homosexuality in terms of lifestyle, clothing, acting, etc. You may never know a person is homosexual unless he explicitly tells you.

    It's probably the same as well with heterosexuals but since it is the "social norm" it is more recognizable amongst homosexuals.
    • #11
    • bambam
    • Windows Firefox Browser
    • Said
    • On: 3/25/2009 11:16:57 AM
    • SpamScore=[5.93]
    hmmm oof this will be a tough one and i'll try to jump around the thorny field.
    ok ...
    For the post
    tendency and behavior is governed by a lot more than sexual orientation and it's tempered by social norms normally, I believe some just can't help themselves act a certain way and it's not an act that they put up. Everyone does that, it just might be that homosexuals are less inclined to inhibit that behavior compared to straight people, and some take it an extra notch to make it a point.
    As for the family background, could it be that all the homosexuals you met were in the west ? and i meant the west coast in specific ? could it be that it's easier for them to break their ties from their families because they are not that good to begin with ? Very few of the people that i know came from such a background, the rest are just normal 3ogla 2o fatoo7. It might be the environment you live in and the nature of the place you are at and its attractiveness for people to flock to it from other parts of the states that might be a contributing factor. Anyways i can't discredit your experiences am just saying i had a totally different experience hence we can't generalize at all, either of us.

    on to the comments
    ahmad Hamdan I always ask the ones that say it should be cured how will they cure them ? is there evidence that it works ? never get a satisfactory answer ...
    marvin well for the genetics part regardless of any evidence i can call upon it won't matter since I tried that path before... it doesn't really work.
    So let me try just a thought experiment, atleast in male homosexuality ... we have an X and a Y chromosome so half of it comes from a women the X one what if there is a group of genes there that cause homosexuality and those genes are triggered by environmental factors and experiences. Now that X chromosome came from a mother, what if those group of genes that cause homosexuality in males cause women to be more fertile (i.e. more sexually active with males). Could that be a plausible scenario ?
    Moving on, homosexuals are different than trans people. homosexuals don't feel they are trapped in the wrong body, and they don't necessarily act like the opposite gender. I think happiness is different for everyone and its funny to make such a broad claim about a whole group of people ... married people are unhappy most of them will tell you that, but is that the case really ?

    qwaider for the Darwinian and genetics part I hope you read the comment to marvin, as for animals I would say they get pleasure out of it, atleast some... hey if that wasn't the case then why would some animals pay for sex ?! (penguin females prostitute themselves to get pebbles to build their nests with, the males pay with pebbles). anyways its weird to ascribe human values to animals but you can't help but see the similarities
    and i'm curious what did you mean by "It's so powerful and the effects can be seen within a decade compared to evolution which will take many generations to be even remotely relevant." is there a specific example that you were thinking of ?

    Either way i hope i answered some of the questions
    • #12
    • Maju
    • Windows Firefox Browser
    • Said
    • On: 3/25/2009 6:52:58 PM
    • SpamScore=[1.04]
    "If homosexuality is a genetic it MUST be inherited, however, homosexuals rarely have offspring of their own genes."

    That's obviously untrue because social pressures make them to behave as heterosexuals and have children like the rest.

    Second, it does seem there is a clear Darwinian element of balanced gender selection. Women carrying the "gay gene" seem to have greater reproductive success than women who do not (maybe they are more "femenine" and hence attractive to men, maybe they are just more fertile): what they lose in gay male ofspring (probably having less descendants) they gain via their female ones (having more descendants).

    Of course genetics is only a factor. But it seems to be dominant in 35% of gay males and 18% of lesbian women.

    We know as a fact that Animals don't have sex for pleasure.

    What?! Obviously they do have sex for pleasure: they are animals! What else would make them arouse? Social obligations, viagra? C'mon!

    So even if some confused, sex crazed ram had sex with another male.

    No. 8% of rams consistently chose other males when presented with a choice. Why do I provide links if you dont even read them?

    Because we really don't know what the ram feels.

    We know that they feel attracted to males over females. That is a scientific fact.

    Furthermore I watched a documentary on the issue and the researcher in Texas had also made forsenic analysis on the rams' brains and those with clear homosexual tendencies had brains that clearly looked like those of sheep rather than like those of heterosexual rams (you know probably that males and females have somewhat different brain structures, even if these are similar in intellectual prowess).

    To me, Homosexuals don't need to explain anything. nor do they need backing from a scientific study to justify their choice. If that's someone's choice and they're at ease with it.

    I agree with that obviously.

    But this doesn't mean that, at least for a signficative fraction of homosexual people (and most animals) genetic determinants are also behind.

    It is a matter of choice, of course, but not only of that. Michael Jackson maybe can choose to become white because he's so sickly rich and can afford the most advanced surgery but for the common of us mortals, if we are born black, white or whatever, we have to put up with it. Same about homosexuality when it's inherited. And it is in a significative ammount of cases.
    • #13
    • KJ
    • Windows Chrome  Browser
    • Said
    • On: 3/25/2009 11:18:52 PM
    • SpamScore=[0.43]
    bambam, in my psychology book there was a case study where a man was "cured", or lets just say reoriented. It was done by replacing the pleasure aspect from male to female. The technique involved exposing the person to arousing photos and him do his thing, and before he is almost done they replace the images with that of the opposite gender.

    Over time (months) the brain associated the pleasure of releasing with the female image instead that of the male. I don't remember the other details of the study but if you want I can look it up in the book.
    • #14
    • Sophia
    • Apple Mac Firefox Browser
    • Said
    • On: 3/29/2009 8:36:47 AM
    • SpamScore=[1]
    Interesting post. Regarding your question:
    "And this raises a another question, does this mean that people can be brought up to without being homosexuals just by proper raising?"

    I believe homosexuality is very often physiological and when not physiological than it can be caused by dysfunctional and traumatic experiences. So a healthy childhood may at times keep some from becoming gay but certainly not all individuals.
    My opinion: To each his own. I've met too many very decent people that just happened to be homosexual. I guess we are all in our own way trying to attain happiness. If some people believe homosexuality is part of being who they are and living a fulfilling life---then more power to them.
    I look forward to reading more of your posts.
    I am late to the discussion, but would like to add my 2 cents in regard to your post-questions Qwaider. I first want to say that I have sensed some changes in your tone towards homosexuals and homosexuality in general which encouraged me to reply.

    "Why do we find Lesbian women trying to be so manly?"

    It is an interesting question. But one would ask as well why do you find straight women trying to be so manly as well. Or why you find lesbian women who are so feminine. Masculinity/femininity is an attribute that is different than sexual orientation. It also comes in variations and can also be related to environment factors. For instance, we percieve lebanese men to be less masculine than Iraqi men, and lebanese women to be more feminine than Jordanian women in general. But is that true? Would lebanese women question themselves: why Jordanian women try to be manly?! The question isnt applicable, but the idea here is to acknowledge the range of femininity to masculinity in both sexes, those who happen to fall at the bad side of the spectrum are rejected by society because they dont follow the norm.

    "Of all the homosexuals I've encountered in my life, not a single one had a good family, or proper upraising."

    How many have you encountered in your life? and what is your definition of a good family and proper upraising? The issue here is based on personal judgement. I myself know many homosexuals, and most of them come from good families with good fathers and mothers.

    How many hetreosexual people you know come from a disfunctional families? Those exist, no? Why didn't they turn into homosexuals then? Wouldn't they hate their parents as well? and wouldn't they form a kind of disorder? Such disorders are know the result of homosexuality, it is the result of disfunctional families and social rejections.

    "And this raises a another question, does this mean that people can be brought up to without being homosexuals just by proper raising?"

    No

    As for the choice issue. Yes, it would be a legitemate argument of homosexuals to claim that they do it because they chose to. Why not? It is their body and their life. But that would be a lie. There is a kind of choice of acting upon your feelings but no once chose what they feel attract to. So if you ask about same-sex act, yes it is kind of choice, but if you ask about homosexuality then no, it is not.

    Just to add to the genetic argument, this is a funny thought, but homosexuals have always been pressured to get married and breed. If there is a certain gene that is associated with homosexuality, then it is ironic, because the more homophobe a sciety is, the more homosexuals are able to pass the gene! In truth, nature is much more complex than that and the work of genes is not simple as stated here.

    KJ, how credible is your psychology book? and was it a single incident? how applicable is it to all homosexuals? Was the man really homosexual before the therapy or bisexual or even confused hetreosexual?  those are very important questions to build on. The current stand of science is that sexual orienation cannot be changed. Maybe they would figure out real methods in the future to change it, but currently there is no way.  
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