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« Dressing up kidsMy theological disclaimer »

We are all Muslims

  • By: Qwaider

  • On:Tuesday, February 17, 2009 10:01:00 AM
  • In:Thoughts
  • Viewed: (6368) times

    • Currently 4.6/5 Stars.
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    Rated 4.6/5 stars (105 votes cast)

    We are all Muslims about most of the other religions, ideologies, philosophies or lack of, that societies have believed in, some of us just go one ideology further.

    Having faith that there is are no God(s) is faith itself. It comes with all its luggage and tax. It has its zealots, and idiots. It also has its moderates and sensible pacifists........ Just like every faith in the world

    Atheistic Zealots? Am I nuts? Could there be such a thing?
    Look around you, it's everywhere... Truth is, no one can infer the meaning of life from science, philosophy or anything else for that matter...

    We think we know... We have theories and models. We work really hard to prove them only to have them completely discredited and disproved a century, a decade, a year later.

    Emm, Richard Dawkins called, and he wants his "steal quotes from Islam" book back

    Dawkins, is a smart man, I have to give him that. He has everything that it takes to be a successful author. He charms the reader with his style, and for some weak minds, he can be very influential in defining the way and shape of plunder they will end up in.

    Throw in there few fancy words about the big bang theory, evolution, the flat earth of the ancients and you have a believable concoction of lies, deceit, half truth, jumping illogically from one hoop to the other without having any basis, repeating the obvious in a flashy way Oh and don't forget completely embracing theories as the ultimate source of truth.

    Theories that even the people who came up with them. Don't believe them, as much as the few idiots who follow blindly.

    If there is one thing history has taught us, theologically or otherwise. It would be that those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it. It doesn't matter which side they're on.

    Those who are stupid enough to believe in ideas that haven't even been even properly vetted , are doomed to repeat what the Church engaged in during the dark ages.

    I don't want to get on the Churches case that much. Little did they know at that time... I'm sure they did everything they did mostly with sincere hearts.

    And today, I see many atheists slipping down that slippery slope. Where it ends, history says, deep in dark abyss. And theology tells us, that deep dark abyss is called hell.

    There's no need to invoke that "You can't believe" god's existence or none existence card. Because for all philosophers throughout history. That has been the great challenge and not an someone like Dawkins is going to solve it. I know the "It's harder to prove the none existence of something". I agree, but to be absolutely certain that A god doesn't exist is a leap of faith on its own. One that even Dawkins ("God probably doesn't exist") nor more reasonable and vastly far more intelligent people like Stephen Hawkins ("I believe there is a god, but unlike the personal god that most humans think of"). Even those people didn't dare walk in that trap because scientifically speaking. We freakin don't know!

    That little doubt that is the reminder of Everything that exists equals everything we know plus everything that we might know plus everything that we will never know. That last part will keep doubt in this noncausal equation, and doubt is the base of faith. Not certainty. Doubt.

    Some people translate this doubt as faith, others as atheism.
    But only fools are certain. (Qwaiderization)

    If you're an atheist, congratulations. You're just as stupid as the rest of us... Sadly, you're ending in a bottomless pit of fire... Oh sorry, you don't believe in that.

    Other Memories Documented on February 17
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    Memories....

    • #1
    • chika
    • Windows Firefox Browser
    • Said
    • On: 2/17/2009 10:39:46 AM
    • SpamScore=[0.53]
    you're gonna confuse those people more discussing it but what I can't figure out is how would someone ignore the fact that there's a "great force" behind the whole universe; It just doesn't make sense at all! You know, I have seen / met some atheists and I wouldn't call them that actually it's more like they are lost and they just don't know where allah 7a6e6on so they chose to ignore - override religion and be self proclaimed whatever they are..
    • #3
    • Chaotik
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 2/17/2009 12:35:40 PM
    • SpamScore=[0.5]
    As much as it is interesting to discuss this subject, as much as it would raise so many arguments on what is right and what is wrong. What shattered the beliefs of so many people is the misinterpretations of all the religions, whether it was Christianity, Judaism, or even Islam. And the ones to be blamed for the confusing that end up with the disbelief of most people are the religion-men “priests/imams...etc.” who pretend to be the “Mr. Know-it-all” and who fill the people’s minds with stories that didn’t even happen. I don’t blame the “disbelievers” for disbelieving. I would personally think they are rational for avoiding all the nonsense spread.
    • #4
    • bambam
    • Windows Firefox Browser
    • Said
    • On: 2/17/2009 1:02:15 PM
    • SpamScore=[-0.13]
    If you're an atheist, congratulations. You're just as stupid as the rest of us... Sadly, you're ending in a bottomless pit of fire... Oh sorry, you don't believe in that.
    Such arrogance !  but then again it is expected, atleast you tell it to their face unlike what you do when you deal with christians, hindus, jews, and the rest.
    Either way why get into a pointless argument about god, when it is much easier to disprove religions :D
    either way it is a big enough statement that you wrote such a long post to reply to a simple two liner which is
    "When you understand why you dismiss all the other gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
    either way you are probably just as stupid as the rest of us and you will end up in hindu hell... oops but you don't believe in that because you (just like the rest) have a book that says that its the only true religion .
    talk about self referential justification of being right " i am right because i say that i am right" :D
    ENJOY !
    • #5
    • laila
    • Linux OS Firefox Browser
    • Said
    • On: 2/17/2009 1:48:30 PM
    • SpamScore=[-0.9]
    like the qwaiderisation :)
    • #7
    • Nizar
    • Windows Firefox Browser
    • Said
    • On: 2/17/2009 3:29:10 PM
    • SpamScore=[-0.46]
    You really just can't leave me alone, I bet having arguments with me is something that turn you on.

    I am not even bothered to reply you because you will just end up deleting my comments and removing my post responses from the community feeds.

    Bambam left you a decent response, enjoy it.
    • #8
    • Nizar
    • Windows Firefox Browser
    • Said
    • On: 2/17/2009 3:39:57 PM
    • SpamScore=[-0.48]
    Chika: I think you deserve a response. I believe that there is a cause for our creation, there is a reason that we exist, I do not deny that and I believe in that too but I do not believe that the answer that Islam tells is true, that is the difference, I am not ignoring anything about our existence, I am just convinced that islam is just another one of the millions of the man made religions!
    • #9
    • Qwaider
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 2/17/2009 4:44:33 PM
    • SpamScore=[-38.56]
    Chicka
    LOL! I love the "lost" part, and I happen to agree with you on some. But I also know a few who are not really lost. They know what they're doing. Those smart "few" I have utmost respect for. They simply "don't care" either way.
    It's the arrogant fools who are really really lost

    Chaotik
    While I agree fully with you that many religious men have pushed many people away rather than attracting them (I feel this personally). I don't think they can monopolize our relationship with our maker. No matter who we are, no matter what we do. Deep inside we have this little compass that always tells us that there is something out there.
    In the new day and age, we have laud shouters like Dawkins just blabbering mostly bullshit. And few "lost" souls that happily follow like the sheep. This sheepishness is not only a condition of believers. But many of the ignorant unbelievers as well.
    Bambam
    Yes, this is Arrogance at it's best. But to specify it further. This is "Counter arrogance", in response to the general notion of some ignorant atheists who keep trying to tell believers that they're better than them because they're atheist. The response is very sincere AND rationally reciprocated. Unfortunately, many are too arrogant to realize that. And don't think I wouldn't consider my belief system superior to Hindus or anyone else. JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE does.
    If Hindus didn't think they're belief system is superior, they wouldn't have followed it
    Same for Christians
    Same for the Jews
    As for Me, I consider the Islamic system superior to all (naturally) since "We're all born Muslim". It's a broad statement, and no one can prove it in anyway, EXACTLY like Dawkin's statement that "we're all atheists"

    By the way, this simple two liner that Dawkins stole from Islamic Hadith. Isn't really the point of my post, but hey, I like to give people the guidance and insight they seek.

    And yes Bambam, I don't care about Hindu hell, because to me, that doesn't exist. See, I wish some people were even remotely Atheists. They get offended of something they don't even recognize to exist. Wow, how amazing is that?
    Let me make it clear. I don't care if ALL the "other" gods were proven not to exist. What I care about is my god exists. And there is nothing, you, Dawkins or Abu Jahl himself can do to disprove that.
    So, how about you revert to the true path my brother? God and heaven is waiting for you

    Laila
    If there is anything I have to say to a true scientist like you it would be. I bow with great humility to you.
    Nizar
    This is not about you. This is about Dawkins that you appear to be so fondly and quote left, right and center while it's clear you're completely lost.
    You turn ME on? You continue the stream of over inflating your ego my little friend.
    And thank you for "bothering" to leave "TWO" comments instead of one. Yeah, who would bother leave one when they can leave two? right?

    Oh and yeah, bambam got a decent response. You both enjoy it
    Nizar#2
    Wow, you have improved. Last I checked, you didn't believe that. Good for you man. What's next? 3omra?
    But allow me to disagree with you on the "Answer"
    Islam provides the best answer (according to Me, and I'm a Muslim, therefore, I'm biased). If you talk to a Christian. It would be Christianity, and I completely understand that. For you it's Atheism because you're still lost.
    So, one day when you find enlightenment and your right way. You will realize that Man made all other Religions and Atheism as an answer. But not Islam
    • #10
    • Ulysses
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 2/17/2009 5:28:11 PM
    • SpamScore=[1]
    HI five man, you just made things clear as simple as that, but anyways, the debate will go on for eternity.
    One thing I know and I'm sure of, it's that these things can't be explained by our limited perception and understanding, neither today or in the future.
    • #11
    • bambam
    • Windows Firefox Browser
    • Said
    • On: 2/17/2009 5:45:33 PM
    • SpamScore=[1]
    hmm see the difference between us is simply that i could careless what anyone else believes as long as it doesn't effect me directly(personal harm) or indirectly(religious laws) so as long as you don't cross that line believe whatever you want... personally i have no interest in religion, nothing there in it for me but dated laws.
    what i was curious about is this (i wasn't going to reply until i read it)
    So, one day when you find enlightenment and your right way. You will realize that Man made all other Religions and Atheism as an answer. But not Islam
    do you know that any other way than it being said in its book ? ? just curious
    • #12
    • Qwaider
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 2/17/2009 7:20:24 PM
    • SpamScore=[-38.75]
    Ulysses
    High five back to you :). It's really simple for people who want to make it simple. And super complicated for people who want to make it complicated
    But as you said, this debate will never end
    And you're right, our minds are too limited to understand most of this universe. It's like judging a book by reading the first letter in it. All we know is what we can sense, and see. And that's barely 1/1000000000000000000000000000000 of what is there!
    Bambam
    Maybe there's a difference. Although, I don't believe that. I think we're all the same, we're all compelled to promote our philosophy and ideas in life and spread them near and far. That's how we're wired.
    Most of the laws that we have today stem from religious laws. This is unlikely to ever change mainly because these are sound concepts, as concepts. So regardless if they were revealed by the Divine or we came up with them on our own. Killing is wrong, stealing is wrong ..etc. These are basic and good
    (Actually, I think laws even predated religions, but most religions blessed them and adopted them)
    One thing is certain, we as humans can't live or function without laws. Due to the tremendous amount of conflict inherent in individuality.
    So I'm sorry to say, whether you like it or now. You ARE abiding by laws imposed on you by other people. It's just how life is.
    "I personally have no interest in religion"
    I can't believe that statement. I'm sorry, but I can't. You appear to be very interested and debate to the death on these matters. Not really the position of someone who doesn't care and have no interest. You have no interest in "Classic" religions, but love and embrace Atheism as a substitute, or another religion.
    But he, I'm not here to judge you or anything. I'm just pointing out the obvious like Dawkins. In fact, I think Dawkins is also very religious too. His religion is Atheism.

    I'm not really sure what to say about your question. I didn't quite get it (my bad), If you can rephrase it, that would be awesome.
    As for "creation" of religion. I would give it to Atheism that it's the only man made religion that people already know and don't disagree about.
    • #13
    • hamede
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 2/17/2009 7:32:23 PM
    • SpamScore=[-2.17]
    العالم مش قابلين يفهمو بان العدم لا يلد الوجود وا المخلوق لا بدا له من خالق
    • #14
    • Chaotik
    • Windows Safari Browser
    • Said
    • On: 2/17/2009 8:25:05 PM
    • SpamScore=[0.49]
    I agree with you about the "compass" or the "great force" as Chika said. The few "lost" souls are not really lost. As we all know, the people who took the atheist's path used to be believers and were not born atheists. I stressed most on the religious men because the majority of them take it to extremes when preaching. They cross their lines with their interpretations to the extent that it scars the religion "whichever religion" to the core. It makes it hideous and terrible. People then relate it all this to its maker. They end up asking questions like: "If God loves us, if he is forgiving, then why did he create hell?", "If he created it as a punishment to those who deserve it, then why did he create evil in first place? Does he enjoy torturing us? Is it a game to him?", "If he has all the power, why didn't he make us all perfect, so we could stay perfect even in the afterlife?" One question leads to another and as Ulysses said.. "the debate will go on for eternity", and more believers would become disbelievers if they don't find answers and elaboration on how balanced the religion could be if the interpretations were balanced and correct. But then again, who would know?

    Note: These questions are not made up. I am quoting some atheist friends I met in Zurich, who are my colleagues. And btw, they are very intelligent people... great minds ;)
    • #15
    • Qwaider
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 2/17/2009 8:46:52 PM
    • SpamScore=[-38.77]

    Hamede
    That's so true, but according to Quantum Mechanics, it's possible for matter to spontaneously emerge. But not at the scale or the universe.

    Chaotik
    These questions are very valid. And many struggle with them. Even the most believers. There are parts that we know. We know that we were created and given a choice. We were created and have no idea on our future.
    Heaven and hell are most certainly concepts, they exist. They are rewarding and painful respectively. This doesn't mean that we completely understand them. In fact, there's a big chance that we will never really understand these concepts.
    Thinking about them will lead us in various directions. The faithful will find personal satisfaction in their reward, while atheists will consider them a construct of a fable human mind. When in fact, looking at them in complete abstract, they do provide good reasons for people.
    Now the majority of religion is really about guaranteeing people a spot in heaven or away from hell. It's about building a community with good morals and conduct. With or without monitoring, and this is a very important aspect of a society. Doing what's right because it's right, not because there's a reward or out of fear of punishment.

    • #16
    • Marvin
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 2/17/2009 10:18:10 PM
    • SpamScore=[-0.22]
    What's the saying? "'God' is just a label that people put on the inexplicable."
    'That little doubt that is the reminder of Everything that exists equals everything we know plus everything that we might know plus everything that we will never know. That last part will keep doubt in this noncausal equation, and doubt is the base of faith. Not certainty. Doubt.'

    Reminds me of the Beatles' - All You Need Is Love -

    "nothing you can do that can't be done, nothing you can sing that can't be sung ...it's easy".

    "Some people translate this doubt as faith, others as atheism.
    But only fools are certain. (Qwaiderization)"

    Or ... how's about this? -

    'All generalisations are dangerous, even this one'

    And in your great wisdom, tell me this - is agnosticism a religion too?

    Btw, can you tell me where moderate Muslims stand on this caliphate business?

    I've noticed Muslims go uncharacteristically quiet when asked this question. Will link your answer to my site, whatever it says.
    • #18
    • Qwaider
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 2/18/2009 1:11:31 AM
    • SpamScore=[-38.83]
    Marvin
    Yeah, maybe. Can't say for sure :)

    BlairSupporter
    Yeah, maybe the Beetles can say it best. After all they're the ones who made millions.
    But I'm surprised of how remotely related the matter of doubt and person's ability to do or sing. It does point out to the fact how we should all be humble. But before the Beatles, we've heard the "nothing is new under the sun" ..etc. What people can do, other people can do as well. So I find it remotely related.

    As for generalizations, I agree. All generalizations are false, including this one. But as you can see. My non-generalization had three parts. Things we know, things we might know, and things we will never know. There is nothing left! So it's really not a generalization.
    Now, if you can tell me something that we don't know, and we will not know, nor are we going to ever know, I would agree to my generalization being false. Consider it a mental challenge.

    Now the huge subject of agnosticism. Which one do you want to talk about? The one out of ignorance (I don't know therefore I don't care?) but you're asking which means that you do care. Therefore, this doesn't apply
    Or is it agnosticism as in impossibility to know, therefore, it's inconclusive, which means, why don’t we just go on doing anything better in our lives than thinking about this stuff. Which is sort of hypocritical middle ground between atheism and theism, meh .. Boring really.
    What I'm saying is that Doubt and Faith are exactly the same thing. Faith is the interpretation of doubt, the quantification of doubt. The only thing we know (and agree upon) for sure is doubt, ironically!

    As for the Caliphate (or Khalifate, or Khilafah) I didn't really understand the question. It's a governance system just like Monarchies however, Caliphates are way more "democratic" than Monarchies, at least in the selection of the leader
    I hate to go "dark" on you regarding this question. But I would appreciate it if you help me out by explaining it a little bit more
    Thanks, Marvin, for your reply.

    Yes, it was rather a light comment of mine on the Beatles, I agree.

    But I have to say - this is intriguing:

    "What I'm saying is that Doubt and Faith are exactly the same thing. Faith is the interpretation of doubt, the quantification of doubt. The only thing we know (and agree upon) for sure is doubt, ironically!"

    I think I would describe that as a cop-out, if you don't mind me saying so. I always understand "doubt" as the omnipresent irritant to "faith" which a lot of the time can be ignored, other times not so, and most of the time it has been banished or dismissed and therefore is not present at all for "believers".

    But I certainly have never felt it could be EQUATED with faith. It seems to me more like a kind of halfway house, between the two certainties that most people seem to have in their faith or their lack of religious faith.

    The consequence of what you are saying is that even if we do not believe that there is a deity, or give any special credence to Mohammed or Jesus, the fact that we do NOT believe means that we DO believe!!

    That can't be right. It is to turn reason on its head.

    Or am I missing something here?

    As for agnosticism I understand it more as saying that someone tends NOT to believe, but may admit that they could be wrong. They may be awaiting a sign.

    I do not see any of these 4 positions - faith, doubt, agnosticism or atheism as suggesting "ignorance", just different experiences and therefore different conclusions (or lack of conclusions.)

    ....................................

    As for the caliphate question - the reason I am asking that is that there is a lot of concern in the non-Muslim world that there is a (secret) agenda to destroy democracy, the man-made mode of governance in secular countries and replace it with a caliphate, so tying all, believers and non-believers into a Sharia-compliant state of governance.

    You said:
    "The Caliphate (or Khalifate, or Khilafah) I didn't really understand the question. It's a governance system just like Monarchies however, Caliphates are way more "democratic" than Monarchies, at least in the selection of the leader"

    We often hear that Islam itself is more democratic than other  religions, as it has no earthly figurehead - equivalent to the Pope/Archbishop of Canterbury etc (RC/Anglican in Christianity). But in secular states  - like western states - religions do not enter into the voting choices - not usually anyway. I can't ever recall hearing it mentioned as a reason for/against a leader or an MP. So the leaders are NOT elected in monarchies or republics because of their religion.

    In the British monarchy, the monarch has no power, and is just a figurehead. The Prime Minister and government have the power to implement policy.

    In a caliphate, from my understanding, Islam IS the state, so all political decisions are based on Sharia Law, Islam's own. This means all politics is really religious.

    This is completely incompatible with western lands or western democracy.

    Do I have this right about Islam/Caliphate/Sharia or am I completely wrong in my analysis?

    And is the idea of a 'worldwide caliphate' still on the agenda for today's Muslims?

    Many thanks for your replies on these points. I look forward to receiving them. These issues are VERY hot right now in Britain.
    • #20
    • Qwaider
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 2/18/2009 4:35:20 AM
    • SpamScore=[-39.62]
    Too many questions, I don’t know where to start.
    Let’s talk about Shariah first. You appear to be just like many others who are confused about Shariah and view Iran or the Taliban as the representation of Islam.
    Shariah is an Islamic law. It can exist with or Without a Caliphate. It has many laws, many of them are clear. Many require some (re)interpretation.
    Many of the Laws of the Islamic Shaiah have seeded the modern day laws.
    I don’t understand the fear anyone has. I don’t think there’s a world-wide conspiracy to revive the Caliphate. But even if there was, chances are there are millions of dreamers who are looking for ways to rule the world. Not so long ago, even people calling for democracy were “conspiring” to achieve their goals.
    Democracy is not a goal, it’s a means. And, not the only means to that.
    What is going now is probably another scare tactic similar to the ones used in the US to demonize Muslims and later on use it as an excuse to violate people’s rights and throw them in Guantanamo bay, torture them and just violate their humanity.

    Now to your other questions..
    The reason doubt exist when compared to Faith. Is to keep giving people a choice. Quite frankly, I doubt the debate would be won by anyone conclusively and beyond any shadow of a doubt. Therefore, at a specific point people make a choice. Faith, or just reject everything. Most so far, have embraced faith for many reasons.

    There is no certainty, refer to my qwaiderization. Only fools are ever certain. I think you are missing some stuff here. But that’s nothing against you, it’s a convoluted concept.

    PS, Ignorance here is not used to refer negatively, but as “unknowing”
    Thanks for the reply and explanation (I think!)

    Ignorance or incomplete knowledge is NEVER a good idea. Thus many of us in Britain want to hear what Geert Wilders the Dutch MP has to say on his condemnation of Islam. We want to hear in order that the whole debate can be opened up to ALL sides in Britain. Right now the British government has BANNED his free speech, by banning his ENTRY into the country. This is the first time this has EVER happened as far as a fellow EU MP is concerned. Many of us feel badly let down by the British government over this.

    You say:

    "Democracy is not a goal, it’s a means. And, not the only means to that."

    Democracy (as we know and practise it) is probably the best "means" of government of a bad lot - is the choice of the secular west (religious people and not).

    Our form of secular democracy is settled. It will not take kindly to others suggesting that a political/religious based form is somehow better or even equally valid.

    You also said:
    "What is going now is probably another scare tactic similar to the ones used in the US to demonize Muslims and later on use it as an excuse to violate people’s rights and throw them in Guantanamo bay, torture them and just violate their humanity."

    As for "another Scare trick" - that clarifies where you are coming from. The "conspiracy" angle. As it happens we do not need to be tricked by anyone with a political agenda. The huge majority of terror attacks in the world today, and for years, have come from those professing to be followers of Islam. You moderate people need to stand up and denounce THEM, not the west for defending itself against them.

    Guantanamo Bay is being closed down. You are very welcome to ALL of these people - back to where they will evidently be better understood and appreciated. Please send the offer of re-settlement to Gordon Brown MP, House of Commons, London, UK.

    Thanks for tying on the caliphate business anyway.

    Can you now tell me how literally you take the Koran? The idea that it MUST be taken literally is disconcerting to some. We tend to pick and choose from the Bible. And we choose to ignore the nasty stuff.

    As for the doubt/faith argument -

    You said:
    "The reason doubt exist when compared to Faith. Is to keep giving people a choice."

    I doubt if I have a lot of faith in your answer for several reasons. But mainly because it suggests a simple choice - black or white. Life and faith are never that simple.

    Btw, I AM a native English speaker, and I DO understand the meaning of the word "ignorance"(!)

    Thanks for taking the time to reply anyway. I continue on my quest to banish ignorance.

    ;0)
    • #22
    • Qwaider
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 2/18/2009 7:32:18 PM
    • SpamScore=[-38.86]
    Geert Wilders making it here? How did you draw the connection I have no idea. But it's obvious that you have a motive out of this.
    Geert is a racist PIG (yes, I said it) he's a pig and anyone who's not ignorant who thinks the same way is a Racist supremacist PIG. Racism is not free speech. Inciting hate and promoting violence against Muslims based on half truths and biased positions is Racism and hate speech, and I will not get into that.
    Insulting people based on the act of some is nothing more than hate speech, the rationalists everywhere in the EU have all come to this conclusion regarding Geert’s actions. Banning hate speech is the duty of the government and I salute UK government, and Netherlands before them for their position.
    And excuse me sir, that's not the first time this has happened. UK rejects the entry of people who would inflame the public opinion and stir up problems through hate speech. Not free speech. You have to realize that by now.

    Democracy is great. I love it. It's one of the greatest forms of governance and I would love to see it promoted all over the world. However, it's not real, and it's not being practiced anywhere around the world. It's an illusion. To give the simple people the feeling that they actually have a say in what is going on. I posted about this many times in the past, you can refer to those articles if you’re interested
    The western secular democracy is not exempt from this illusion, the sooner you realize how special interest groups "play" the whole system, not only that but they mandate and dictate the policy of the whole nation. The sooner you realize that the sooner you’ll know how much of a lie the media, special interest and financial cartels try to blind your eyes with.
    Secular democracy wouldn’t have probably existed had it not been for the horrible atrocities that were committed in the name of the Church and god. A condition not shared by the enlightened east. What the east is living in right now is the dark Ages. Unlike imperialistic  Medieval, blood thirsty Europe.

    Who said that we don't denounce terror? Who said that we don't hold radicalists like Osama bin laden as instruments of evil? Who said we're not suffering because of them? You think I'm justifying their positions? I am not, but it's obvious that in your single track anti-Islamic mind based on some form of phobia. This contradicts your position on Democracy. But let's not over psychoanalyze your motives at this time. You have to realize that what these so called Islamists are doing is not in the best interest of the Nation. We have all denounced their actions. But I guess, once on the CIA payroll, always on the CIA payroll. And this is no conspiracy. This is a true documented fact. Just go read a little bit on the history of the "Mujahideen" in Afghanistan.

    Guantanamo bay is being closed down, as a symbol. I hope this new "Change" lives up to the expectations. I'm very optimistic to be completely frank with you. I think this is a great first step in civil liberties and human rights. I welcome it unconditionally.

    Now to the Quran question.
    Quran is the world of God almighty, and we need to approach it with an open mind to get the meanings.
    Who is the ignorant fool who said it needs to be taken literally? Geert of course and racist pigs like him promote that. When it can't be any farther from the truth.
    When it comes to Quran, there are things that are clear as night and day. Inheritance law for example. It's written there clearly. Many things are there also clearly. Many things are up for interpretation due to the richness of the Arabic Language, the original language of the Quran. This means some verses are interpreted in different ways. Some can be re-interpreted endlessly as we understand our world more and more.
    Take for example the thought of "Cutting off the arms of thieves". This was interpreted literally at some point in time (and if people like Osama Bin Laden have their way, it would continue to be like that). But upon modern interpretation and close inspection we discover that Omar Bin Al Khattab the second Khalifa abolished the rule. Not because he didn't believe in it, but because he reinterpreted it in a different way. Cutting off the hand here is figuratively taken as "Remove the means for him to do this again" either by elevating the poverty, or reasons for stealing and then apply appropriate punishment. This is a long subject, maybe I'll revisit it at a later time.

    And on doubt/faith
    Since I stem from Engineering background, (not to be confused with mathematician) our results usually have an "Answer" and "Tolerance" or (doubt). Mathematicians on the other hand don't believe in this and think only in finite definite answers. They spend literally hundreds of years seeking this final answer (many committing suicide during this quest)
    Anyway, since there is an "Answer" and "Doubt", there's nothing left out! It's like saying, You "might" be wrong. This sentence is always true. Regardless of you being wrong or right, because it has the element of doubt (might). I hope this makes the issue a little clearer from a philosophical point of view. Let me know if you need me to clarify it further.

    My answer as you can see, doesn't provide a simple answer, but two possible answers. People tend to interpret things the way they like. Some will find faith in this, some will denounce faith. There really isn't a third option (other than ignoring the whole thing which also falls into denouncing faith)
    I wouldn't have guessed that you're native English speaker, you seem to still need some 5th grade classes... Just kidding :) I know what you mean. I think the word "ignorance" is one of those that make people immediately take the negative side. Kind of like bias. Although we can use them for other things.

    Let me know if you have any further questions. And try, as much as you can, to stay out of the pit of racism. Superiority is just another form of racism.
    • #24
    • Qwaider
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 2/19/2009 1:55:27 AM
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    Blair supporter
    I’m exercising my right per the policy on this blog not to display any hates peach or insults on my blog. If you would like to read more about my position on Geert’s position, you can check my archives
    • #26
    • mechri
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    • Said
    • On: 2/20/2009 3:33:54 PM
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    salut moi je ss mansour 27ans et toi
    • #27
    • Christopher Ward
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    • Said
    • On: 2/21/2009 9:40:17 AM
    • SpamScore=[2]
    I came across this site unexpectedly and I'm not going to parade my political opinions for others to nit-pick. The families of those killed in Gaza have my sympathies but I only write to agree with you about Dawkins.  Where we come from, there is a saying - crude but convincing.  "He is so far up himself he can pick his nose from inside.

    I remain to be convinced that the fundamentalists and wild-eyed fanatics of any faith can be reconciled, reconstructed and preventing the death of millions.  but Qwaider, if you are a Muslim don't insult me by claiming any moral, religious or political superiority,  All are equal in the eye of God and you are right, there is no place for racism, fascism and other totalitarian and tyrannical regimes.  

    Peace be with you.
    You too can have your Memories Documented

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