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What is Haram? Why does it run our world!?

  • By: Qwaider

  • On:Friday, October 03, 2008 12:17:00 AM
  • In:Thoughts
  • Viewed: (33518) times

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    I'm so disappointed with how loose we have become in branding everything that comes our way as Haram. When the origin of EVERYTHING is Halal according to Islamic Fiqh and Sharia. In fact, the tolerant Islamic laws (Shariah) have completely lost it's most important selling points in history. Mainly tolerance, understanding, ease and applicability.

    I see this, with a lot grief everyday as I look around me, as it seems. Everything has become either Haram or unacceptable. While all the allowed and approved Islamic forward thoughts have been capped and thrown in someone's locked dungeon

    Few months ago, I had a rather violent discussion with couple of people who insisted on gelatin being completely Haram. Even though, most of the time we have no idea where it came from. I had this discussion after I saw on one of the shows on "History channel" how they prepare Gelatin in the largest Gelatin producing factories in the US where they were getting their gelatin from caw bones/skins. Which makes it not even related to Pigs, but there's no way to be sure since the appearance of bones can't be distinguished from a distance

    The thing with Gelatin is that by the time you get the raw material, it's COMPLETELY a different matter. It's boiled, treated with Acid and Alkali to produce a very pure product that has no taste, smell or color and is completely indistinguishable based on its origin. Molecularly it's very much the same!

    Yet, my good friends insisted, that the origin makes it Haram. And I'm really not sure where to draw the line here! How much refinement does it take to make something that is completely Haram become Halal, the answer was an absurd infinity. You cannot refine anything haram to produce something halal no matter how many times you do.

    Consider this; Plants are chemical factories, they recycle dirt and the nutrients in the soil to produce fruit. Much of it is from Haram sources like, rotting dead meat, animal waste among many other sources. YET, all of this is Halal. Even though many people can tell you with great accuracy if a plant was irrigated with waste water and trace it. So how about that? Does that make things Halal?

    I'm frustrated in so many ways whenever we decide to take any matter at a microscopic level while forgetting the bird's-eye-view of the issue. Granted, both are important, but forgetting the whole picture is really unacceptable!

    The same issue is there when we talk about Alcohol, as in, what level of alcohol is considered insignificant, and therefore not Haram. (Although, I still don't consider Alcohol to be Haram because: (1) There's no explicit Haram verdict about it in Quran. (2) There is no punishment for drinking Alcohol, and (3) Many of the Sahaba and some Khulfaa continued to drink alcohol after Islam. And (4) It has certain benefits which is an indisputable fact in addition for it being mentioned in Quran like that) [However, and just for the record, I don't drink, I consider it as harmful as smoking and I stopped that too]

    I'm glad that Qaradawi issued a Fatwa of 5‰ being the upper level (for any food or beverage). Although 1% is probably just as good since at 1% it will take someone to drink 5 liters of the liquid to get the equivalent of 1 liter of regular beer. Which is beyond the capacity of most stomachs (around 2 liters). In other words, a person has to fill his stomach 2.5 times before he can get the 5% equivalent. Or in other words, WAAAAY too painful and way too harmful than drinking Alcohol on its own. Let alone the 1/10000 amount of alcohol in a single donut!

    It's about time we looked once again to what is Haram, how we branded everything as Haram. How we started pushing people out of this tolerant religion, and how people started looking at Islam as an extremist religion that has no place in the modern world

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    • #1
    • Hameed
    • Windows Firefox Browser
    • Said
    • On: 10/3/2008 1:58:06 AM

    "Although, I still don't consider Alcohol to be Haram because: (1) There's no explicit Haram verdict about it in Quran. "
    Not so true...

    "ينبغي أن يعلم أن في كتاب الله أكثر من عشرة أدلة على تحريم الخمر، وفي السنة المطهرة أكثر من ذلك، وقد انعقد إجماع أهل العلم من الأئمة الأربعة وغيرهم على تحريمه، بل قد عدَّ علماء الأصول تحريمه من المعلوم من الدين بالضرورة، وأن من أنكر حرمته يستتاب "
    From here...
    http://www.lahaonline.com/index-counsels.php?option=content&task=view&id=2808§ionid=2

    And..
    "تعقيب الله تعالى على ذلك بقوله: (فاجتنبوه لعلكم تفلحون) والأمر بالاجتناب لفظ استخدم في الزجر عن الأوثان وعبادتها، فقال تعالى: (فاجتنبوا الرجس من الأوثان واجتنبوا قول الزور) [الحج:30] وقال: (ولقد بعثنا في كل أمة رسولاً أن اعبدوا الله واجتنبوا الطاغوت) [النحل:36] وقال: (والذين اجتنبوا الطاغوت أن يعبدوها) [الزمر:17]. كما استخدم لفظ الاجتناب في ترك كبائر الذنوب والآثام، قال تعالى: (إن تجتنبوا كبائر ما تنهون عنه نكفر عنكم سيئاتكم) [النساء:31] وقال تعالى: (الذين يجتنبون كبائر الإثم والفواحش إلا اللمم) [النجم:32]"
    From
    http://www.ebnmaryam.com/web/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1003
     

    you can google for more...

    Anyway, I am with you on your main point though....generally.
    "الأصل في الأشياء الإباحة" so unless there is a clear 2aya or a saying from the prophet or a general consensus from Muslim "leaders" (for the lack of a better word) then judge your conscience, but keep in mind if its doubtful then you are better off staying away from it...

    And of course God knows better.

    • #2
    • me
    • Windows Chrome  Browser
    • Said
    • On: 10/3/2008 2:22:11 AM
    @ Alcohol:
    You mean Wine is Haram but alcohol is Halal?
    Hameed, thanks for the links and the addition.
    I'm well aware of what you said. I'm just not in full agreement with it and think it has been exaggerated to prove a point.

    Me:
    I mean alcohol regardless the matter that contains it
    • #4
    • Hameed
    • Windows Firefox Browser
    • Said
    • On: 10/3/2008 3:27:17 AM
    "...has been exaggerated to prove a point."
    I am not quite sure on your religion/background/origin so I'll try to lay it out as clearly as I can.
    Saying that if something isn't clearly forbidden in the Quran then its halal isn't that simple...you are forgetting the "Sunnah" (if the hadeeth" is agreed on is true) then is simply as truthful as the Quran itself (as stated clearly in the Quran)
    (وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانتَهُوا)
    so if you believe in Islam and Quran you HAVE to believe that whatever Prophet Mohamed PBUH has said is true without a shred of doubt, otherwise you are dangerously close to "kufor"

    So your argument that
    "There's no explicit Haram verdict about it in Quran" si that makes alcohol halal isn't true. (Even though "فاجتنبوه " is as explicit as it gets) it doesn't need to be for alcohol to be forbidden because the explicit verdict is found in the Sunnah.


    BTW I assume you are a drinker :)
    I am feeling that you are a Muslim who consumes alcohol so you are trying to convince yourself that it is not haram just to make your conscience feel better. Just a friendly advice...DON'T!
    Convincing yourself that Sunnah isn't part of Islam just because it's not convenient to you is "Kofor" whatever way you put it, so just admit that what you are doing is wrong and try to make yourself better then pray to God for forgiveness is the way to go...No one is perfect and God is willing to forgive anything other than "Kofor"...

    I am sorry to go all "Muslim brotherhood" on you but I felt that I had to :)
    Oh and if you are neither Muslim or a drinker then just forget what I just said...
    Actually, I don't drink. I don't even go to drinking places. I don't even smoke!
    But that's exactly my point. I'm not trying to justify it, I'm finding it illogical.
    The issue here is that Alcohol is mentioned in the Quran more than 3 times explicitly. So why not with the Hurrimat and Haram verses?
    Ijtanibooh means Avoid. Which is really far away from Haram. It means " avoid if you can"
    The three other reasons I mentioned have not been refuted yet. In addition allow me to add a forth. There's NO edible substance, that we consume anywhere that doesn't have a small percentage of alcohol. From Dates, to Yogurt, to bread. All have alcohol in different concentrations
    What is terrifying is the choice by some to consciously not want to use the accumulated experiences, knowledge, learnings, evolutionary wealth,  intellectual abilities, and collective perceptions, in addition to the holy words they are guided by. Surely this negates the holy call for humanity's contribution, for being better, for being enlightened.  Islam places so much emphasis and shines so much light on knowledge, and yet with every day that goes by we chose otherwise.  If that is not haram, I don't know what is!

    Wasn't intellect the first thing created by God?
    • #7
    • Hameed
    • Windows Firefox Browser
    • Said
    • On: 10/3/2008 5:51:38 AM

    "Ijtanibooh means Avoid. Which is really far away from Haram. It means " avoid if you can""
    No, it just means avoid, not avoid if you can. That's a clear order to keep away from it...I don't understnad what's unclear about it!

    "The three other reasons I mentioned have not been refuted yet. "
    Hmmm....I didn't try to refute them simply because they are just too easy to refute :)

    "There is no punishment for drinking Alcohol"
    Sure there is....You'll rot in hell:) But if you mean in this life then note that only sins which affect other people or are clear indication that one is a "murtad" and denouncing Islam are punishable in this life, such as killing or stealing but sins which are related to GOD it's up to him to punish for them in the after life. Take not fasting during Ramadan or not praying for example. At least that's the general idea as I believe.

    "Many of the Sahaba and some Khulfaa continued to drink alcohol after Islam."
    Show me proof first. However even if it's true then what Sahaba and Khulfaa did proves nothing, they are mere humans, they don't define or represent true Islam. One Sahabi committed adultery with another sahabeyya that doesn't make adultery halal!

    Also note there is a difference between "nabeeth" and alcohol...
    http://www.ikhwan.net/archive/showthread.php?t=58310


    "It has certain benefits which is an indisputable fact in addition for it being mentioned in Quran like that"
    I don't see your point...As you said Quran acknowledges that Alcohol is both useful and harmful but it's more harmful so stay away from it and its "Rejzon men 3mal al shaytan"

    "There's NO edible substance, that we consume anywhere that doesn't have a small percentage of alcohol. "
    Again show me proof...
    Keep in mind that the idea is
    "ما أسكر كثيره فقليله حرام "
    No matter how much bread you eat you aren't getting drunk.
    Also note there is a period for "tkhammor" (not sure what it means in english) which is I think 3 days for grapes for example...so normal grapes are halal until they turn into something which makes you drunk, so don't tell me that grapes can be turned into wine so they are haram.


    As said before...Everything originally is halal until proven otherwise and as long as you mean well then should be fine...

    "Many of the Sahaba and some Khulfaa continued to drink alcohol after Islam"
    Assuming that your statement is true and can be backed up by authentic sources (tab3an I am not referring to any orientalist accounts, travelogues, or even tales like the "A THOUSAND AND ONE NIGHTS"), can you please clarify on the following:

    -Name a couple of those sahabaa/khulafaa, at least, those of whom you know of. and please, provide an authentic source. I'm highly interested in acquiring knowledge about such claims you make.

    - If "Many" of those sahaba and some khulafaa you mention insisted on consuming alcohol after/while being Muslims, does that make it halal? why?

    nadine
    Thanks, that's true, intellect was the first thing god asked humans to do when he revealed Quran. It said, "Iqra2" or "Read" but more precisely, investigate, learn and understand how the universe is created

    Hameed
    There's no use in Arguing. Bread is made by a fermentation process from yeast (Khameereh). Smell fermented bread, and smell alcohol. They are exactly the same smell. Yogurt is also fermented. Ripe fruits are also fermented.
    Fermentation can happen in as little as 2 hours. It doesn't take days. And if "Ma askar katheeroho" was true, then EVERYTHING in this universe is Haram!
    Which is exactly the point I mention above. There's a lower limit (say %1) that makes it impossible for a person to consume and get intoxicated (without suffering worse effects). Which is what Qaradawi talked about.

    The reasons I gave you are not easily refutable. First Avoid means Avoid, it's not a BAN!
    Second, There is no punishment in life or in the Afterlife for drinking alcohol (unless you consider not drinking from Heaven's alcohol a punishment), research it a bit if you like. Also, people who drink don't automatically go to hell. Just like any sinner, doesn't just automatically go to hell. Which is also another point I talk about above. TOLERANCE! EASE!

    Nabeeth isn't Haram because it's Nabeeth! But because it has Alcohol in it! Nabeeth also means something that has been set aside. You can also consider it "Naqqee3". It doesn't necessarily have alcohol. What is considered Haram is drinking Alcohol with the intent of getting intoxicated.
    Let's do a little experiment....
    Grab a handful of raisins, put them in some warm water, and leave them until the night.
    Smell them.....
    Leave them one more night ...
    Smell them again

    Now what you smell, is actually fermentation. EVERYTHING goes through it. Although, yeast is often used to accelerate it (yeast's waste is Alcohol)

    شرح سنن ابن ماجه للسندي

    ‏قوله ( وما أسكر كثيره فقليله حرام ) ‏
    ‏أي ما يحصل السكر بشرب كثيره فهو حرام قليله وكثيره وإن كان قليله غير مسكر وبه أخذ الجمهور وعليه الاعتماد عند علمائنا الحنفية والاعتماد على القول بأن الحرام الشربة المسكرة وما كان قبلها فحلال قد رده المحققون وفي الزوائد في إسناده زكريا بن منظور وهو ضعيف  


    Secratea
    I don't want to mention people by name for exactly the reason you stated. I don't want to claim something on some one's testimony. But, look in history and you will see this mentioned several times
    Khulafaa were in power for over a thousand years. From Mo2awyah to the Ottomans. I think finding a "few" who drink isn't that hard

    Second, that doesn't make it Halal, but that doesn't make it Haram. If god didn't say it's Haram, who is ANYONE to ever walk the face of this planet to say it's Haram? Remember, saying something is Haram is as severe as saying it's Halal. Although, the origin of everything is it being Halal

    @"Many of the Sahaba and some Khulfaa continued to drink alcohol after Islam"

    You see, the mistake you make is precisely when you accuse "many of the sahaba" of continuing to consume alcohol even after becoming Muslims-- as if they also go on drinking binges and get wasted Friday nights!

    To the best of my knowledge, the sahaba immediately got rid of any alcoholic drinks they possessed when the Ayah of banning alcohol was revealed to the prophet, peace be upon him.  
    As i do lack reliable sources at the moment that might back up your claims, I'd appreciate whatever source you recommend that does contain such information about at least one sahabi, if any do exist.


    @"But, look in history and you will see this mentioned several times
    Khulafaa were in power for over a thousand years."

    My question to you from the start was, whose history exactly should i look through? how authentic and reliable is such documented history? I just can't avoid being redundant on such matter, but i still think your claims are based on Orientalist claims and accounts that even us, Arab and Muslims, accept because we've been taught our own history that has been saturated with Western narratives about our people, region, religion, and history.
    forgive my typos and my past/present tense confusion.
    • #12
    • Hameed
    • Windows Firefox Browser
    • Said
    • On: 10/3/2008 3:14:00 PM
    Qweider you are simply throwing out baseless arrangements without ANY sort of proof!

    "Bread is made by a fermentation...
    ...EVERYTHING in this universe is Haram"
    Our baseline here is human beings, so if you need to eat a ton of bread to get intoxicated that's simply a moot point because you'd be dead!
    So show me a **PROOF** that eating too much bread would get you intoxicated without killing you then we'll talk.

    The idea isn't banning fermentation it is banning what gets you intoxicated whatever it maybe...if something is fermented but doesn't get you drunk then by all means go for it...No one is saying its haram.
    Don't assume hypothetical assumptions, quote me a clear "Fatwa" that says something is haram to make an argument.



    "The reasons I gave you are not easily refutable"
    They are...I just did. Read my post above. :)


    "First Avoid means Avoid, it's not a BAN!"
    Someone tells you "Stay away from drinking this, it is the work of the devil" you understand this as "please don't drink it...but by all means go for it if that suites you"?
    If this REALLY how you understand arguments then we should stop wasting our breath on this (or our keyboards' lives :))


    "Second, There is no punishment in life or in the Afterlife for drinking alcohol "
    Actually after some research I just found it... :)
    من أجل ذلك كلِّه شدَّد الإسلام العقوبة على شارب الخمر، وأمر أن يُجْلَد ردعاً له وإنقاذاً لروحه؛ أخرج أحمد وأبو داود والترمذي والنسائي وابن ماجه عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم أنه قال: «من شرب الخمرة فاجلدوه، قالها ثلاثاً، فإن شربها الرابعة فاقتلوه». وفي صحيح مسلم أن عثمان رضي الله عنه قال: (جَلَدَ النبي شارب الخمر أربعين جلدة وكذلك فعل أبو بكر).
    from here...
    http://www.arriyadh.com/Islam/LeftBar/Ayah/------/-----------------------.doc_cvt.asp



    "people who drink don't automatically go to hell"
    We agree on that...the only sin which automatically gets you on the fast lane to hell is denouncing God and Islam as I already said before...I meant by going to hell is that drinking would get in your book in the afterlife and you would be punished for it unless God decides to forgive you.
    If we took your way of reasoning then there isn't any need for Heaven and Hell since there isn't anything that's punishable! I mean what's the punishment for lying, cheating, bribery...etc.?



    "Nabeeth isn't Haram because it's Nabeeth! But because it has Alcohol in it! "
    I totally agree on that as I already said before!
    From my post above..."Also note there is a difference between "nabeeth" and alcohol...
    http://www.ikhwan.net/archive/showthread.php?t=58310 "
    ...So what's your point?

    I am starting to wonder if you even read what I say or quote!


    "قوله ( وما أسكر كثيره فقليله حرام ) ‏"
    ...رده المحققون "
    This isn't the only hadeeth which states the *fact* that alcohol is haram...
    وقال   صلى الله عليه وسلم   {   لعن الله الخمر وشاربها وساقيها ومبتاعها وبائعها وعاصرها ومعتصرها وحاملها والمحمولة إليه   }   رواه  أبو داود   من حديث   ابن عمر    رضي الله عنهما   واللفظ له ,   وابن ماجه   وزاد   {   وآكل ثمنها   }   وروى مثله   ابن ماجه   والترمذي   وقال غريب من حديث   أنس   . قال  الحافظ    المنذري   : رواته ثقات .

    وأخرج الإمام أحمد بإسناد صحيح وابن حبان في صحيحه والحاكم وقال صحيح الإسناد عن ابن عباس رضي الله عنهما قال سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم { أتاني جبريل فقال يا محمد إن الله لعن الخمر وعاصرها ومعتصرها وشاربها وحاملها والمحمولة إليه وبائعها ومبتاعها وساقيها ومسقاها } .
    From
    http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/library/BooksCategory.php?idfrom=134&idto=134&bk_no=44&ID=87

    and..
    "عن رسول الله   صلى الله عليه وسلم   من طريق  عتبة بن الحارث   ,   وأنس بن مالك   , وغيرهم :   {   أن رسول الله   صلى الله عليه وسلم   أتي بالشارب فأقر , فضربه ولم ينتظر أن يصحو   }   . "
    from...
    http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Library/BooksCategory.php?idfrom=2385&idto=2392&bk_no=17&ID=2326

    and...
    الشيخان عن ابن عمر أن النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم - قال: " كل مسكر خمر، وكل مسكر حرام " وروى الشيخان عن أبي هريرة عن النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم - قال: " لا يشرب الخمر حين يشربها وهو مؤمن ".
    from...
    http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-Arabic-Ask_Scholar/FatwaA/FatwaA&cid=1122528600904

    I don't think I need more but if you are not convinced there is always Google
    http://www.google.jo/search?q=%D8%AA%D8%AD%D8%B1%D9%8A%D9%85+%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AE%D9%85%D8%B1&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a



    "I don't want to mention people by name for exactly the reason you stated."
    So basically we are back to throwing baseless arguments without any kind of proof :)


    "But, look in history and you will see this mentioned several times"
    Sorry man...you don't get to claim something and ask us to prove it for you...YOU claimed it is YOU true prove it!
    "البينة على المدعي واليمين على من أنكر  "


    "If god didn't say it's Haram, who is ANYONE to ever walk the face of this planet to say it's Haram?"
    Actually MANY people can!
    First and foremost the Prophet PBUH can, and he did...I am not going to even try to sugar coat this...if you denounce what the Prophet said then you ARE going to burn in hell (You look up why :))
    Second Quran and Sunnah did not mention everything that was and ever going to be explicitly, they provide guidelines for us to follow...So how can we find out the the 7okom for any and everything in life?
    There is a whole science behind it, it's called" أصول الفقه"
    See here...
    http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A3%D8%B5%D9%88%D9%84_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%81%D9%82%D9%87
    • #13
    • Hameed
    • Windows Firefox Browser
    • Said
    • On: 10/3/2008 3:17:02 PM

    I am so sorry for the long post...

    If you are still not convinced and need to read more then see this page...
    http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-Arabic-Ask_Scholar/FatwaA/FatwaA&cid=1122528600904

    If THAT doesn't convince you then nothing I can say or do will...So I am done with this argument.

    Peace

    • #14
    • Dave
    • Apple Mac Firefox Browser
    • Said
    • On: 10/3/2008 5:32:33 PM
    Smoking can be extremely harmful to the body and yet it is widely accepted and permissible.  I would think that those choosing to err on the side of caution (i.e., those willing to condemn every little thing as "unclean") would also focus on smoking as something that is haram.
    • #15
    • afaf
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 10/3/2008 6:03:58 PM
    ur topic reminded me of sunday school's graduation gathering last year. i brought in some pizza that i baked home, i made it from scratch for kids among other thins we all brought...then one kid, i guess he was 10 yrs old, pakistani, kept asking me about the origin of cheese on my pizza, i kept saying "mozarella cheese", he kept asking where i got it from , cuz "some cheese sold in some places r haram???"...i was in shock, ofcourse after debating where i got my cheese from and why and so and so, like 10 minutes, i was thinking "why donot u just shut the hell up and eat like everyone else!! would i bring something "haram" for kids????"...chill out, u r a kid and let adults worry about it!!!
    i hate it when they make it an extrem like that!! use ur common sense, it is cheese for god sake!!
    Mohanned, that kind of answer is exactly what I'm talking about. Even the "Faqih" cited the Verse without completing the "منافع للناس" Add to that the start of his Fatwa, of how it's always Mushrikeen, and the Jews trying to convince people that their religion is wrong
    I'm not trying to say Islam is wrong, I'm just saying there are those who make it wrong by making it lose it's tolerance and understanding. It's sad really to see that happen

    Hameed
    There's no point in arguing. These are hard scientific facts. Alcohol is a natural substance. It occurs naturally by breakdown of sugars. These sugars can be in fruits or any drink that has less than 10% sugar concentration. It is accelerated by yeast (khameereh). Indecently, this yeast is the similar to the yeast that is used to raise bread. And the smell of dough (3ajeen) is that of Alcohol. Just ask your mother. Or anyone who ever baked some bread. It doesn't take days for sugar to break to its simpler components; Ethanol and Carbon dioxide:
    C6H12O6 → 2 C2H5OH + 2 CO2
    You can read more about it in much more details here
    Fermentation (takhmmor) also has a desirable effect in foods that helps preserve pickles, yogurt. It also occurs naturally due to many microorganisms (bacteria)
    In some substances like grapes it can happen in as little as 15 minutes, while in others (like Milk) it takes over 6 days. But with yeast, it can happen in couple of hours. Even with lactose

    That's the scientific hard fact, we can't eat anything that doesn't have a minute alcoholic content. This planet earth, EVERYTHING is connected no matter how little the matter is. And if "Ma askar katheeroh fa qaleeloho Haram" was true, it means everything in the world is Haram. Pure and simple.

    Now, lets take this at a different level. As in, "getting intoxicated is not acceptable" I think we all agree on that. In fact, even modern laws are in agreement on that. Although, they restrict it to "operating motor vehicles and heavy machinery". But that works.

    There is no punishment for drinking Alcohol that has been documented without any shadow of a doubt. There is no punishment in Quran, and what Abu Bakr, Omar or Othman was based on the actions of the intoxicated person and not the act of drinking.

    I think enough has been said about Alcohol here. I am not saying it's Halal, I'm not saying it's Haram either!
    I was not interested in the content as much a I was in the flow of the arguments made. The verdicts and the conspiracy aspect of any fatwa has become a norm, so, my point was that, well, you know what I mean :)
    • #19
    • Hameed
    • Windows Firefox Browser
    • Said
    • On: 10/4/2008 1:27:13 AM
    "what Abu Bakr, Omar or Othman was based on the actions of the intoxicated person and not the act of drinking."
    Completely untrue as again I **already** posted before...The prophet whipped people for simply drinking and not acting on it. Qwaider PLEASE read my posts fully first before making me repeat what I say.

    "There is no punishment in Quran"
    Again please don't take the Quran as a separate entity...Islam is a complete set of rules and guidelines outlined in both the Quran and Sunnah. Denouncing Sunnah is KOFOR!

    Based on your reasoning let's discus "Rape"...There is no punishment for it mentioned in Quran or even sunnah, it's not even mentioned at all! So that means its even lesser than getting drunk...At least we were told to stay away from alcohol but not rape.
    I mean everything is supposed to be allowed unless its clearly forbidden, right?

    So there...
    Rape is halal!

    Do you see the lack of logic here yet?

    Rape has the ruling of "Al mufsideen fil Ard" because it's inflicting harm onto others. In addition of it being taking what's not rightfully yours. Top that with Zina. And you have the exact punishment of Rape

    Drinking does not have a punishment. What's mentioned about the prophet isn't even in Sahih al Bukhari, which is also not a 100% proof that we should take it

    As for taking everything in Sunna, that's not true. The prophet used to ride camels. Does that make riding Camels sunna? No it doesn't!

    What is mentioned by everyone but Bukhari that prophet did whip the drinker. Although, such a significant occasion should have been emphasized and known by everyone. However, Bukhari didn't add it. May I ask why? Maybe because he had a considerable amount of doubt that it has happened?

    As for History, I'm not going to be the one who publishes certain sections of history. That would be Zakaryah Butros who has other motives. But if you're interested, I can email you privately.

    Again, there's no use in arguing and straying off the main topic. If you're just going to continue to repeat the same stuff, then we're not going to get anywhere!

    Since you never answered my questions I will take it as a lack of authentic source that mentions the companions drinking habits. Just please don't make such infamous claims about those whom took it on themselves and their lives to spread the message of Islam.

    As alcohol was widely and regularly consumed in Arabia pre/post-Islam, according to your line of argument and logicality, I so wonder why it wasn't part of the prophet's diet!!
    a sip won't hurt, eh?
    secratea, why don't you check your email?
    I find the Muslim obsession with alcohol quite fascinating actually.     

    Generally people seem to have an easier time dealing with a stone cold sober Muslim who allegedly cleanses his family honor by killing a sister, who wrecks his community's wellbeing by bad business and greed, who dehumanizes the family institution by imposing three incestuous wives on each other, who straps a belt of explosives around his body and flicks the switch in the name of Islam.  But sipping a glass of wine/drowning in a bottle of tequila is a sin Islam is somewhat obsessed with.

    Oh, and of course there's the veil/cover up neurosis.

    Bizarre.

    As humanity regresses, does it look like we've got our priorities right?

    Salam Qwaider,

    Your opinion on the Gelatin is actually an acceptable Islamic Fatwa.
    My brother has summarized the different Fatwas on Gelatin, and he lists the islamic opinion that, as you said, Gelatin is chemically has changed so much there's no difference left between Beef & Pork gelatin.

    http://muneebarrabi.jeeran.com/archive/2008/2/466807.html

    The fatwa says this is just like making vinegar or purifying water. Even though the Vinegar was wine at one point, since it was chemically changed, it turned from haram to halal. Gelatin is the same way.

    It's only a case of how strictly you want to interpret the rules. The more religious you are, the more you want to err on the side of caution. About Gelatin, the plant made gelating tastes just as good. Provided you know the animal based gelatine didn't come from pig's fat it's not haram. It's that simple.

    About not being able to make something halal from haram, I once asked about using Alcohol in baking cakes, and was told the alcohol is no longer alcoholic once it is baked, it only gives flavor, so it becomes hala after the baking.

    The ban on alcohol didn't come all at once in islam, it came gradually. This was also the explanation I was given as to why Islam didn't just ban slavery and instead gradually made so many different acts of penance include freeing slaves.

    To me this is partial proof that these rules weren't of divine origin, but rather humans trying to slowly convince a society to join them.

    I don't think Islam itself is extreme, it's just that the most extreme muslims are the ones most likely to be covered in the news. Having said that, I don't thing any religion belongs in the modern world!
    Thanks Arrabi, that was very insightful!
    You know, that fatwa is a mystery over here. Most people don't know it and will not even believe it. As the soul of Islam and it's tolerance has been hijacked. But, this is really great to see how there are still a few scientists out there who use their brain first.

    Thanks a lot
    You're welcome Qwaider.
    Now, about Alcohol, islamically it is definitely haram. I also used to believe that all fruits have alcohol, but it turned out that there are different alcoholic chemical compounds. The one that causes drunkenness does not exist in all fruits - mostly just beer.

    However, again, as you said, Islamic Countries allow foods to be labeled Halal is they have up to .5% or .8% alcohol. This includes Saudi Arabia - the Moussy "non-alcoholic" beer sold in Saudi has something like .7% alcohol. I assume this means there's a fatwa somewhere allowing this, but I couldn't find it. Do you have a link to the Qaradawi fatwa you mention above?

    About Alcohol, of course islamically it is haram. I also used to believe that all fruits had it, but I couldn't verify this scientifically, and I've been told that the alcohol causing drunkenness does not exist in fruits.

    However, as you mention above, several islamic scholars, including Ibn Uthaimein (the late Saudi grand mufti) & Salman Al-Odah of Saudi Arabia, allowed Alcohol in negligible quantities in drinks. This is why Saudi Arabia allows "non-alcoholic" beers that contain up to .5% or .8% alcohol:
    http://islamtoday.com/showme2.cfm?cat_id=2&sub_cat_id=561

    notice that in Saudi, the label does not say .5% alcohol :-) this is why muslims in the US get confused and afraid of consuming it.

    NAB is getting popular in the us also:
    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3469/is_n3_v42/ai_10342267

    here's my treasured link. I found it. This link shows the alcoholic content of about 200 drinks as tested AFTER manufacturing. This is not similar to the claims of the manufacturer. It clearly shows that Moussy, as sold in Saudi, has alcoholic content of .05%

    http://www.brewery.org/library/AlClbinger.html

    Moussy Non-Alcohollc Malt Beverage  0.05        15
       Cardlnal Filbourg (Switzerland)  0.10        16

    Here's the [urlhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/arabic/middle_east_news/newsid_7343000/7343145.stm]Link to the fatwa[/url] (Arabic)
    As I've mentioned above (which is also mentioned in this article) Alcohol is a naturally occurring material that appears in ripe fruits, juices and what not. It isn't restricted to Malt or grapes. It's not specifically the product of fruits but rather the sugar in these fruits.
    There are many types of Alcohol, many are not suitable for human consumption (like Methanol, AKA Wood Alcohol) which is poisonous. Or Ethylene glycol.(Antifreeze in the radiator) which is also not suitable for human consumption.
    Surprisingly, Ethanol, the "pure alcohol" has so many benefits that it's amazing that the Quran specifically mentions "Mnafi3 linnas".. here're a few:
    1) Fuel - by burning (Cars and rockets)
    2) Fuel - in fuel-cells
    3) Antiseptic
    4) Solvent (grease ..etc)
    5) Dilute perfumes while remaining transparent
    6) Antidote for alcohol poisoning (from Methanol or ethylene glycol..etc) forcing them to convert to Acids instead of toxic alcohols! (Subhan allah) {Yokhrij el 7ay min al Mayyet}

    It should be noted that Arab/Muslim scientist were the first to isolate, and produce pure Ethanol alcohol. Al Razi, Jabir Bin Hayyan, and Al Kindi all contributes to this. It would take the west an additional 1000 years to reach the same level of understanding of alcohols
    you say "Alcohol is a naturally occurring material that appears in ripe fruits, juices and what not."

    do you have a proof? or a link to a scientific paper that expands on this point. I couldn't find one.
    I don't understand why would anyone drink beer, alcoholic or None alcoholic. It tastes like yukh!#$%#$. Why suffer?

    As for the Alcohol part, man, go search, oo 7ill 3anni. I have better things to do than trying to convince you. But rest assured, it's there! Even Qaradawi said it's there... so gibb!
    I agree about the bad taste and odor (although some alcoholic drinks are odorless), but note that some people drink it not for the taste, but because in small quantities it relaxes you without impairing your judgment significantly. Some people claims it helps them concentrate or be inspired
    (think of most of the poets of the jahiliyeh). Others claim it helps during sex making it longer lasting for the man and hence more enjoyable for the woman.

    I think the part you and mohammad are in disagreement on is fermentation. You can drink fruit juice all you like as long as it hasn't been allowed to ferment, it's not alcoholic.
    I should add the way small amounts of alcohol affect a person depends on the person. I've known some people who become very funny once they drink, and others who get very sad, and still others who get violent. Perhaps removing the inhibitions reveals what the person is truly like.

    Huh, didn't know this, but through Endogenous Ethanol Production, the human body makes alcohol :-) and if you have the right set of diseases, some of this alcohol can get to the blood and you'll feel drunk ;-)

    http://www.dui.com/dui-library/bac/endogenous-ethanol

    I'm not challenging you about the "alcohol being naturally occurring process". But I really want to know about it. I used to say that Oranges on the tree have a percentage of alcohol. However, I could never find a scientific paper saying so.

    Muhammad, this might help
    Notice the very specialized conditions to prepare the "press juice". There's a reason he didn't use ordinary juice. Also notice that it's made of yeast! Finally the critical point is that he says during the fermentation the juice must have no contact with oxygen, otherwise it will not ferment. These special conditions make sense otherwise you'd have millions of people drinking juice getting intoxicated.

    One thousand grams of brewer’s yeast [1] that had been cleaned as a prerequisite for the preparation of compressed yeast, but to which no potato starch had been added, is carefully mixed with the same weight of quartz sand [2] and 250 g Kieselguhr. It is then triturated until the mass has become moist and pliable. Now 100 g of water are added to the paste, it is wrapped in filter cloth and gradually subjected to a pressure of 400–500 atmospheres: 350 cc press juice are obtained.
    • #39
    • KJ
    • Windows Firefox Browser
    • Said
    • On: 10/7/2008 9:06:30 AM
    I've always been telling my friends that everything in the world ferments (even muscles when you're under strenous exercise) but that doesn't mean it is 7aram per se. The alcohol family is pretty big in chemistry.

    In my opinion the 7aram thing is that you're drinking the substance with the purpose of getting drunk or tipsy or enjoyment etc. But that's an opinion and I didn't read into this :/
    • #43
    • Saif
    • Windows Firefox Browser
    • Said
    • On: 5/22/2011 6:17:55 PM
    • SpamScore=[1]
    Well my Question is simple, are you an Islamic scholar? If the answer is no I would strongly advise you from giving any "facts" which are based around your opinion and minimal research. Islam considers many factors surrounding what is halal or haraam and well conducted research, maybe you should talk to your local Imam or Scholar about your article here to clarify it, thank you.
    • #44
    • Qwaider
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 5/22/2011 11:27:28 PM
    • SpamScore=[-43.54]
    Thanks for your comment Saif.
    Actually looking at some of the "fatwas" flying around, I don't think being an Islamic scholar isn't like it used to be. Every half literate "scholar" gives whatever "opinion" he feels like giving for that day.

    When you say "Islam" you really abstract a very complicated thing in one word. Islam doesn't say anything about many things, it's up to the people and their proper understanding to interpret Islamic position on a matter. Most of the time you will find conflicting understandings and varying intrepretations which is all good in my opinion.

    I just choose to follow what is more inline with science and logic.

    I'm not sure if I answered your concern here, but please understand that:
    1. I'm not issuing a fatwa
    2. I'm not saying Pig or Alcohol are Halal
    3. I am stating facts that you are welcome to dispute and I'd be more than happy to refute any argument as I'm pretty sure of what I'm saying.
    4. My opinion here is based on a number of logical facts. This is what people do. We "think" and that's part of what makes us human.
    5. Local Imam is most likely not qualified to (a) speak in fatwas or (b) speak about logic and science. I think you'll find this true in 99% of the "local Imam" cases which will just "recite" whatever they were taught without any thought. So sadly (and painfully), that's not an option
    You too can have your Memories Documented

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