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Going back to Sunna

  • By: Qwaider

  • On:Sunday, July 06, 2008 9:23:30 AM
  • In:Thoughts
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    The greatest minefield you can ever hope to navigate. Is certainly issues that has to do with Religion, but more specifically, the major sources of religion. For Islam, these have been well defined as: Quran and Sunna. But in that lies tow major issues.

    The first issue is the proper interpretation of Quran, the second one, and the most problematic is Sunna. For many reasons the most problematic one of them being what should make it in, and what Mustn't, shouldn't and logically couldn't be of the Sunna.

    Read what I'm saying carefully, I'm NOT advocating denouncing Sunna and not recognizing it, I'm specifically talking about what should be considered part of the Sunna, and what needs to be left out! Specifically parts that are inappropriate, illogical, defy science and basic common sense.

    Basically, 1300 years after Al Bukhari finished his Amazing Sahih, it's about time we got a new Bukhari. Someone to clean the Sunna and the Hadith of all the strange, impure, weird and what defies logic.

    It's about time we start utilizing the 21st century advances in computers to create a massive database for the Hadith. Not only to include a narrative accounts of the content. But to allow for different kinds of research that would include multiple dimensions relating to the narrator, his connections, in a chronological order to generate relational links that would add a specific score to every Hadith and the likelihood of it being actually authentic.

    That's only the very first step on the long path of cleansing the Sunna from all the impurities that have stuck to it. Despite all the sincere efforts by all the great scientists to do that over the past 1300 years or more.

    The next step would be to separate what the prophet might have said as a matter of common talk of the times, and what we need to cherish as Shariah Law. It's really very important to draw a distinction between the two. It's true, that the Quranic verse that deals with prophet's speech ""وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَى* إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا وَحْيٌ يُوحَى" النجم : 3-4" (Nor does he speak of (his own) desire * It is only an revelation that is revealed). But that doesn't mean it was the case for every word he uttered. In fact, there are also proof from the Quran that the prophet has spoken on his own and have made mistakes. Refer to the Aya "عبس و تولّى" which translates to "overlooked [the man] and moved away".

    Two other incidents solidify this same concept. During the pollination season for Palm trees in Madina. The prophet ordered people not to pollinate. They followed the orders only to be disappointed with the yield. The result was a very famous words where he said, "You know the matters of your world better".

    The second incident was during the battle of Badr. The prophet ordered the Muslims to take camp at a strategically poor location. When one of the followers asked if this was a revelation from god. The prophet replied indicating negatively. When the follower proposed a better location that might have been the determining factor behind the Muslim win.

    It's about time we cleansed our Sunna from all the casual talk, daily chatter, and many rules that aren't really intended as rules, but rather as a decision for a specific issue at a specific time. Not every word that the prophet said is something that we need to follow to the letter. That is not blaspheme, or attempts to cast away the Sunna, in fact it's more targeted towards focusing it to the the actual Laws, not specific decisions.

    This is not the end, these are few starting steps on the very long road towards a new true enlightenment. One that will most definitely have a lot of objection especially from people benefiting from the statuesque

    Other Memories Documented on July 06
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    Memories....

    بلوج رائع بس فيه نقاط حابه احكيها وبتمنى انك تتقبلها برحابة صدر هي
    انه انت نسيت علامة العصر الحديث اللي نقح الكثير من الاحاديث من الغلط واللغو والكذب العلامه الالباني رحمه الله
    ثانيا الشخص اللي لازم ينقح السنه اذا فيها  غلط يجب ان يكون عالم بالسنه والقرآن والشريعه مش انسان عادي
    الامر المهم بين كل هذه النقاط هو انه لا يوجد شيء عمله الرسول او اعطى ملاحظه عليه يمكن تجاهلها لانها تعتبر قانون حياتي وتعليمي وطبعا الامور اللي أخطأ فيها نزل فيها تنبيه من الله سبحانه وتعالى
    In my humble opinion, this task is too much for any single person, even if it took all his life. Like Al Albani. It will require a huge effort from a huge team utilizing the latest in relational databases and computer science to recreate this chunk of history with all it's glory including all variables and all it's characters but most importantly, their historical relevance to properly create the relations and associations. It also needs a great deal of overseeing but Hadith scholars, but Computer science folks are also needed to get such a massive task done

    But as I said, that's only one part, there's are still many others to consider
    كلامك في منو و في ناس بلشو بالموضوع بطريقة معينة بس مو متل ما عم تحكي انته
    عم يعملو على تنقيح السنة بس بدون ما ينحذف منها شي

    المشكلة عمرها ما كانت بالسنة النبوية , المشكلة بطريقة قراءتنا إلها و فهمنا و استيعابنا إلها


    ف بفضّل انه نحن نشتغل على حالنا لنفهم السنة و نعرف نقرءهاو انوضحها اكتر و نقرأ الحديث الفلاني و نعرف انه كان بخصوص هيك بوقت هيك , على انه نحذفو او انأرشفو على اساس انه ما له لزوم لأنه المنطق بحكي هيك او لأنه حاله خاصة , او لأنه شو بستفيد منو   

    قبل ما نعمل حالنا عارفين  و عنا العدة الازمة لتنقيح مصدر من مصادر التشريع  الأساسية  يلي ما بتعرف شو بصير بالزمن يمكن نرجع نركب على الأحصنة ,  ويمكن يخيلنا نحتاج شي كان  مرتبط بزمن النبي عليه السلام و بحياته ,و  لازم نكون أهل و انكون فعلا على دين الله و فعلا  عنا اقتداء و تقيد بتعاليمه ,  و كمان نعرف  للغة العربية بشكل ممتاز لأنها بتفرق اكتيييير معنا  

    و لأنه الدين مو شغلة واحد درسو و بس , شغلة واحد قادر انه يفهم فحواه و يحس فيها مشان يطلع معو أحسن شي

    و برجع و بحكيلك الدين مو كلو بالمنطق و مو كل شي لازم يوافق المنطق, و مو كل شي لا يوافق المنطق مالو صحيح  

    الأمثلة يلي طرحتها انته اجت لإثبات انه النبي عليه السلام بشر كمان , بس الغلط بإمور التشريع تصححت  من عند الله


    برجع بستغرب انه 1300 سنة و الناس معتمدة الحديث ك مرجع ثاني بعد القراءن , دين الإسلام محفوظ من عند الله , يعني هلأ ادركنا انه لازم يكون غير

    بعدين ليه كاتبه بالإنجليزي ؟


    على فكرة انا مو ضد الفكرة , بس طرحها شوي مختلف انا مع تنقيح السنة و ربطها بتسلسل زمني مع نزول الأيات و مع توضيحها و شرحها اكتر و توضيح   بنودها
    بس مو مع حذف اي شي منها شو ما كان

    لأنه يمكن وجود هي الأحاديث(يلي اشرت الها انه ضعيفة , غير منطقية ) هي يلي عم تخلينا نتناقش هلأ و هون , و يمكن تخلي حدى معين يبلش يقرأ صحيح بخاري و يفهم  ,الموضع اكتر و كمان عم بتوصلنا عن حياة النبي عليه السلام كيف كان يحكي و كيف كان يرد و ليه هيك تصرف

    يلي الغريب انه صارو يربطو بعلم النفس و تحليل لغة الجسد

    مابتعرف شو السبب  يلي برجع و بأكد عليه

    لازم نشتغل على حالنا لنعرف نقراء الحديث بطريقة مختلفة

    لو بتشوف كتب تدريس الحديث و خاصة بخاري و يلي عم اطلع عليها هلأ ادامي ,  لتعرف انه دراسة الحديث مجرد دراسة قبل ما تبلش تنقح بدو مجهود  هائل و حمل تقيل يلي ما ظنيت بوقتنا الحالي في حد اد أنه يشيلو و تحمل تبعاته ليوم  القيامة و على فكرة بدمشق مدرسة الحديث ربطت طريقة رواية شفويا مع إشارات الجسد من تحريك يد او تأشير و غيرة  

    لتبلش بهيك شي , بدك توصل لمرحلة انه تحط عئلك بعئل البخاري و تعرف كيف كان يفكر لتعرف تنقح شغلو و يطلع معك شي

    البخاري الجديد

    حكيت" تقريبا "كل شي عندي   مشان ما ناقشك اكتر من هيك

    تحياتي لك و نهارك سعيد
    • #4
    • KJ
    • Windows Firefox Browser
    • Said
    • On: 7/6/2008 9:26:16 AM
    I consider myself a fresh new Muslim so I haven't dug deep into all these issues.

    But in the years that I have considered myself Muslim I have taken "jawhar al deen" and stuck with it. For me personally all I have to do is believe and that with a right head I can deduce a reasonably sound judgement, especially if I had consulted a friend or two.

    Getting into all the rules and regulations and figuring out how this is in relation to that and why this contradicts that (when something is chronologically refuted) is a taxing and complex task.

    Less is more, in my opinion - I believe, that's the most critical point, before or after Islam, I believed. Everything else isn't critical, and, if needed, I consult.

    Regarding your scheme for world domination, it's a great idea, in a utopian world. Recreating history... let's decide what is history first before we recreate it. Am sure you know the difficulties I am hinting at :)
    قباني
    اهلا و سهلا بك دوما و بآرائك
    بالفعل تحتاج دراسة من هذا النوع الى جهود خارقة و مثابرة على مدى سنوات طوال. لكن بما انّنا استطعنا فك رموز جينات الإنسان و هي مهولة العدد. فلا بد ان بالإمكان فعل شيء شبيه للحديث النبوي الشريف. و اعتقد ان هكذا مشروع يحتاج الى تضافر الجهود من عدة نواحي دينية و علمية. فالحاجة الى علماء في الحديث و علماء في التاريخ الإسلامي و علماء في الفقه وربط كل هذه المعارف عن طريق قاعدة بيانات ترابطية حديثة. لكن هذا هو الجزء الأول فقط. ويتبعه جهود عظيمة للتفريق بين افعال الرسول كإنسان و قائد و زوج و اب و حكيم و رئيس دولة و دوره كنبي من جهة اخرى. اي ببساطة التفريق بين الأمور الشرعية و الأمور الحياتية. فمثلا طريقة استنجاء الرسول لا تعد ضربا من العبادة او تحتوي اي فائدة فكما ان الإعتقاد ان الأصنام تنفع و تضر من الشرك بالله. كذلك الإعتقاد ان اتّباع و محاكاة حركات الرسول نوع من التعبّد هو ايضا ضرب من الشرك. فالعبادة شيء و المحاكاة شيء آخر
    الأهم هو التمييز بين امور العبادات و امور الحياة. بين الشريعة، وعادة العرب قبل 1400 سنة.
    و انا هنا ادعو الى تنقيح و تنظيف السنة و فرز الأحكام و التأكد من الأحكام الأخرى
    الأهم هو الوقوف على درجة صحة الحديث و اعطائخها ثقلا من ناحية الصحة اعتمادا على العلوم الحديثة بطريقة شبه بوليسية لكن علمية الى ابعد درجة و بعيدة عن المعروف و السائد فقد نكتشف مثلا ان بعض الأحاديت مستحيلة من ناحية تاريخية
    للأسف، يبفى الإسلام و القرآن و الحديث و السنة في موقع الإتهام حيث يعكف الآلاف من اصحاب الأغراض الدنيئة على النصوص القديمة بحثا عمّا يمكن استخدامة ضد الإسلام لتشوييهه و التشكيك فيه. فالمطلوب ان نسبقهم الى اكتشاف و تصحيح الأخطاء قبل ان تتحول الى امور فادحة لا يمكن تداركها


    KJ
    I'm going to answer you with one thing only:
    استفتي قلبك، و ان افتوك
    That's a very important rule, if you feel something is wrong, and everyone tells you it's right. Then follow your heart! Even if there was a fatwa about it

    Having a database to contain all these details is going to help people like you and me, go through the part they don't understand and find all the possible relations.
    actually, thats what they did in the old times of bokhari and moslem, they constructed the sunna and made comments here and there that "maybe the Prophet meant that wallahu a3lam" its pretty tricky if we are un-knowing of these hadith-s, the problem is that at school they teach us the most redundant ones (the ones they dont teach us how to comply with in the first place) but that web-based archive of old works is already up and runnin its where i go to in case i have any issues (with a powerful search engine, not state of the art but works)
    http://hadith.al-islam.com/

    an example of trickiness, i went thru the hadiths about music, first one was saying, no no, big no no, second one was saying, yes sometimes, no others, the third one was saying yes maybe... u know what i mean? if u read the first u get the feeling that ya7aram music is hell, i was very alarmed and scared walla, but as i move on with it, it turned out that there are many aspects, now the source is documented as u can see, its not documenting and cleansing that is the problem, its making sense of it all over again, we need someone to put these together and explain them all over again... thats what i believe we should be spending time on
    • #7
    • MD
    • Windows Firefox Browser
    • Said
    • On: 7/6/2008 12:01:01 PM
    nice ideas Qwaider, but it is really undoable, there are many different things that some people will find important to be applied as said, and some find useless.

    I dont know why do we need Hadeeth at all , will you say that it taught us how to pray? does this HOW really matters for God? or does he look inside the heart? what is mentioned in Hadeeth that Muslims couldnt do in one way or the other? Dont you find Quran enough?why spend alot of time on Hadeeth and meet all the contradictions in the world ? this cleaning idea you came with, in fact, will only make us follow the cleaners who will do it, because in the end they are (will be) forcing their environment, experiences and what they feel right, unconciously maybe, on the cleaning process , and this will not be the right thing to do. this is exactly what boukhari did to some extent.
    because we are human and we judge uncounciously i find this idea of yours very nice (because some of us need it) but undoable (because we can not rent an angel to do it) but then we can simply look around us and find the solution which ,i believe, has everything we muslims need, Quran that is.

    the computer idea is also nice but impossible, because history isnt that clear, the way hadeeth is full of lies, history could be also full of lies.
    i believe that religion has to meet the changes in order to stand, which brings us to the very basic idea that Quran that mentioned all what matters to God is enough, all other issues have to meet the life changes.
    sa7ee7, mabrook ur site is working again, and there was an ad at the right pane that said: meet single arab girls, with a sexy girl, that appearted to be wearing nothing :s :s :s :S :S
    Mariam
    Thank you very much for your input which I highly value. But frankly, most efforts that have been put so far have barely scratched the surface on this very important source of Shariah. It's not something to be neglected. It needs to be organized in an intelligent way. There's no other way.

    MD,
    Although I know where you're coming from, I'm afraid we really can't do without Sunna, Mainly because Sunna teaches us how to pray, perform ebullition and the proper way to perform other rituals. There are many rulings that can be deduced from Sunna. We just can't be Muslims without them (Sunna is a comprehensive term meaning what the prophet said, performed or approved)
    Although the Quran contains so much information, the Sunna is there to detail it. To cross the t's and dot the i's.
    There's nothing impossible, if we collect everything, and create such a relational database that associates people, with events, time, their travels, and collects every piece of information in this huge jigsaw puzzle, I'm sure we can come to few conclusions similar to the scientists at earlier times. They were able to discredit a number of narrators based on impossibility of them being in the same location as someone else. But they really can't do that for all the hundreds of thousands of Hadiths out there. It needs A LOT of work.
    Also, read my answer to Qabbani

    Mariam#2
    What do you mean "it's working now" did you experience any issues? Please let me know [I've recently moved to a new server]
    I still want my female coworkers to breast feed me!
    Qwaider,
    I love the relational database thing, because you are talking in an area of expertese there but I think you went a bit too far in some comments like "كذلك الإعتقاد ان اتّباع و محاكاة حركات الرسول نوع من التعبّد هو ايضا ضرب من الشرك"
    You should really study and learn more before you issue fatwas, it is very dangerous...  If you look at how all muslim scholars define sunna and how the Sahaba understood sunna... you will find that you are passing your own judgement without careful examination...
    Sunna is defined as "كل ما ورد عن السول عليه الصلاة و السلام من قول أو فعل أو تقرير"  If you wan't to discuss that issue I don't really think this is the best place to do it or the right way of doing it...

    I know you mean well, but I think you should do some additional research on that, even discuss it with those who are experts in that field "فاسألوا أهل الذكر ان كنتم لا تعلمونinto it...

    I hope you will take this comment seriously...
    You too can have your Memories Documented

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