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Gay for a day!

  • By: Qwaider

  • On:Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:48:40 AM
  • In:Thoughts
  • Viewed: (7674) times

    • Currently 4.4/5 Stars.
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    Rated 4.4/5 stars (119 votes cast) Thanks for your vote!

    Meet, Rasheed (his middle name). A member of the local mosque committee group. A reformed Muslim, and an ex-con! Yep. Rasheed had to do time in jail for some crazy things he engaged in while he was younger. He repented and vowed to never ever go back to it. Since he admits it was an eye opening experience having faced near death several times in the big hose.

    But, that's not so interesting, what is more interesting is that he admits that he has engaged in homosexual activities while in Jail, so I decided to put the concept of "once gay, always gay" to the test and I decided to ask him a few questions, and I wasn't very surprised since I personally, do not believe that homosexuality exists outside of people's heads!

    The Gaydar

    Asking Rasheed about his experiences wasn't that easy. He's a married man now, with two beautiful little kids, and a lovely understanding wife that he adores. They're planning on having two more kids. They hope one of them is going to be a girl, and they already picked a name for her; Aisha. 

    Rasheed, started talking, with a great deal of shame about his experience in Jail. He used to be a member of a gang and after several brushes with law enforcement he was sent to do time in jail. Where he continued to be a member of gang.

    He admits that he eventually raped, got raped and engaged in consensual homosexual activities with other inmates. But once he was released. He would seek women and only women. And never tried or thought of soliciting sexual favors from men.

    He was sent to the big house again, where this time he met some Muslim brothers. Few months later he became a practicing Muslim, and severed all his ties to gangs and other illegal activities. He proceeded to earn a collage degree and decided to get a decent job

    So I asked if he has any urges to be with other men or if he finds men interesting in anyway. He replied by saying that he has never liked the whole concept of other men. He had to do what he had to do when he was in need or he would never had done that. He also said that after the whole sexual craze matter has subsided. He wasn't feeling those needs. He found solace in the his belief. He found the comfort that he was seeking and no longer had animalistic urges. But most importantly, he changed the type of people he hanged out with. The new group embraced him despite his previous mishaps, as the path to repentance is always open and clear

    So I asked if he was reformed gay. He answered, that he was never gay!

    This whole discussion solidified my belief that homosexuality doesn't exist! It's a sexual preference, orientation. But NOT a religion or a way of life. It's not a bug or a disease. It's people deciding that they want to do one activity in one way and not the other. Its exactly like people preferring to eat chicken breast over chicken thighs.

    I also remember this kid who had some homosexual tendencies or behavior while we were growing up. Many years later, he's an alpha male with 3 kids and lives (and loves) his wife! It was just a phase

    Finally, the last example was someone I knew personally back at school, he used to also enjoy being with "boys", then found a nice girl, and closed the whole chapter on his life that he doesn't even remember anymore.

    Religion's position:

    My religious take on this is simple. Religion recognises that homosexuality posses a great deal of temptation for some people (and not so much for others) just like the temptation of gambling, drugs and alcohol. And the religion's position is clear. It's NOT ALLOWED.

    By that it means that combating the urges is actually an act of piety, and people will be rewarded for confronting and defeating their demons.

    There were Homosexual activities being practiced ALL over history. Since the dawn of time. Humans have engaged in these activities and they are a natural part of our existence. But they're not allowed religiously.  Just look at the Bible, you will notice that the world was pretty much an R rated place!

    So?

    Everything I said above doesn't mean that ANYONE is allowed to discriminate against gays based on this sexual orientation. It might be a sin, but that doesn't mean that a person engaged in this is a bad person, less human, or beyond redemption. Being Gay starts with a choice and end as an addiction. It's NOT a disease, and it's not something that is genetic!

    I think enough has been said about how this is not the person's fault. And how some people tend to be homosexual by nature. I don't believe either is true. I think it's just a way to justify it, a coat hanger for guilt to allow people engaging in homosexual activities to face shame, social rejection/discrimination and guilt.

    "It's not our fault" , "God made us like that"

    It's not a fault. It's a personal sin (religiously) and all religions have provisions for people who want to repent. Or who are willing to live with their sin. Without losing their religious belief. Many know that gambling is a sin, but they do it anyway! The society doesn't look that harshly down on those. And I really wonder why! Gambling is as much a sin as engaging in homosexual activity is.

    People need to let it be!

    As for all the hetro people out there. Let it be. Seriously, as long as you are NOT being directly affected by this. Let it be! If someone wants to become gay, they will. And if someone wants to become straight. They will, regardless of anything!

    Interestingly, women have a lower percentage of homosexuals than men! But that's a whole other subject

    Other Memories Documented on November 11
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    Memories....

    • #1
    • bambam
    • Windows Firefox Browser
    • Said
    • On: 11/11/2007 10:43:58 AM
    i take it he's black right ?
    qwaider go read up a bit then come back to discuss this
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_sexuality
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_rape

    even tho i know u don't like wiki but its a good start to reassess the blanket statement u just made based on a facultative  setting
    hmmm... Good for Rasheed...
    About the gay stuff, i am sorry to say that it disgusts me. if i meet gay people i will be polite and respectful. but i doubt i will become close to them. that's just me..

    I agree it is a sin and it is not a disease or something you are born with. there is a difference between a transexual and a gay person.
    • #3
    • Ola
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 11/11/2007 10:55:33 AM
    I never believed that someone is born homosexual. As for hermaphroditism, it's a whole different issue. That is a medical condition that can be worked out through surgery. While homosexuality is, I believe, a pyschological issue. Just like Pedophilia, I never heard someone claiming the right to be pedophile or saying that it's soemthing they were born with
    • #4
    • sara
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 11/11/2007 11:09:30 AM
    We're never supposed to ill-treat anybody (according to their sins).. We're not God.. WAllahi well said brother Sam.. I totally agree with you & I think that this is one of the best thoughts I've ever read on this subject..
    • #5
    • bluelilly
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 11/11/2007 11:12:27 AM
    i think this became as a fashion . social background, childhood period,, the whole life that the person live affect on his interests , doings and personality in future.
    "Being Gay starts with a choice and end as an addiction."

    Sorry Qwaider, while you are giving a sound opinion of asking people to tolerate those who choose to have same-sex relationships, I find that line laughable at most.
    Check American Psychological Association Site (there verdict is based on latest scientific studies, not a testemony of some friends)
    http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html

    I quote the following to answer you:

    "Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?

    No, human beings can not choose to be either gay or straight. Sexual orientation emerges for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed."

    Please notice that:
    Sexual orientation is different from sexual behavior because it refers to feelings and self-concept. Persons may or may not express their sexual orientation in their behaviors.

    So in conclusion:
    Your friend has never been gay as he said. He may have been engaged in some same-sex activities (notice he said raping - which is has nothing to do with consenual same sex) due to some difficult circumstances.

    His testemony is in no way a proof that homosexuality is a choice that can turn into an addiction.

    Bambam
    The color of his skin isn't related to the whole matter.

    Anyway, I read through the two articles and they seem to be not bad and have a lot of interesting ideas. I however have some reservations on the wording of some sentences like "these men generally consider themselves heterosexual" which implies that they're wrongfully assuming that they're straight!
    I think that's a biased statement by the writer(s) of the article in wikipedia. But that's alright

    Do you have a specific objection to what I wrote?

    Wonders
    Yeah, he feels he's on the right path
    You have every right to have your own feelings on a matter. We don't always have to be politically correct on what we feel. But as you said, we need to continue to be respectful and mind our own business

    Ola
    I completely agree with you on this. I think it's psychological. People WANT TO be like that. Actually most gays are like that. There are however others who feel that they're really not their own sex and nowadays it's becoming easier to alter the gender and become what they internally feel


    Sara,
    Thank you very much that's a great statement

    BlueLilly
    True, at certain stages back at school, it was just like that. Then we grew up and it was something to joke about

    The Observer. I will continue to believe what I believe and at the same time, find the findings of APA incorrect. Based on my observations

    Let me tell you what sexual orientation is
    Of the thousands of males that have passed through my life, one a handful (less than you can count on the fingers of a single hand) had feminine or female like tendencies. For those, I would say a big MAYBE.

    I still think it's a choice, I still find it to be a sin, and for some their strongest temptation. But just as there are priests who abstain from getting married and having sex. These people who are very few, are asked by their religions to resist such a temptation.

    Also notice that he engaged in sensual homesexual sex.. read it
    Now, excuse me, I don't find this idea laughable!
    • #9
    • Tamara
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 11/11/2007 12:13:29 PM
    Very well Q, you spoke my mind ! and that's saying a lot ; p
    Tamara, you can't imagine how honored I am with that coming from you. I'm so honored
    well skin color matters in term of the american prison system and especially in this matter since statistically young white males are more susceptible to be on the receiving end of such act rather than on the dominant end, and they will be protected by people of their color the same way Latinos do it. while whites tend to not protect their own unless they are part of a white supremest gang . so if he is black then he would have been more likely to have participated in a consensual manner to pay up for a debt or something along those lines rather than being raped (even though u mentioned that too)
    so for that line it implies the opposite of what u inferred, its just that the person participating in such acts doesn't have any conflict about his orientation and he views himself as a hetro. just like you described in ur post.
    my main objection is that you hinted that whoever participates in such an act is a homosexual(which is not the case to some a hole is just a hole but they would prefer a female one but wouldn't mind whatever is readily available), even if it was rape(the case according to what he mentioned) and you disregarded a lot of the environmental settings of being in jail and the kind of politics involved in that.
    Bambam,
    he said that he did things with coercion at some point. He had a need and there were only men! So he came to some sort of agreement!
    i agree with u on every single word u said...that's what i think and how i see it too
    and it doesn't make him a homo :P pardon my french but he just needed a ramming hole ...
    "Of the thousands of males that have passed through my life, one a handful (less than you can count on the fingers of a single hand) had feminine or female like tendencies. For those, I would say a big MAYBE."

    Now, here where you went wrong Qwaider. You based your judgement on a stereotype assumption that links same-sex attraction with feminine treats. If you know better you would be surprised that the amount of gay people within the thousands of males you know are far much more the few feminine men that you can count on your single hand fingers. To add to your surprise some of those feminine men might not be gay as well!

    You can consider homosexuality sinful based on your religious believes as much as you want, and I myself respect that. You are entitled to yoru believes.

    But stating that it is a choice is a big mistake which I am gladly trying to correct you.

    Yes, it is a choice to act on a desire or not as in your example of priests in Christianity, but it is not a choice to have that desire in the first place.

    Now the question that pops up here: How much it is fair to judge people that have different desires on their acts? For instance is it the same for a man that is about to die of hunger to snatch the sandwich of a little kid in the street, as of another man who is not hungry at all and doing the same thing?

    If you judge both the same, then you are not fair.

    Think about it.
    • #16
    • Isam
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 11/11/2007 1:49:47 PM
    "I will continue to believe what I believe and at the same time, find the findings of APA incorrect. Based on my observations."

    That is the most hilarious thing I've ever read. Can you please share your "observations" with us ? maybe explain a little about the size and variety of the selected sample that you based your "observations" on.

    This is the APA man, it's consisted of the best psychologists in the world. when you want to disapprove them, you need to spend your whole lifetime researching.

    Damn !
    • #17
    • nobody
    • Linux OS Firefox Browser
    • Said
    • On: 11/11/2007 5:24:59 PM
    Observer,

    You are absolutely correct -- keep up the good work. Science has shown that a preference for the same sex is something that people are born with. Religion is unnatural, and ultimately, a loathing for gays almost always ties into religious teachings. Science over emotions!
    Stewie is gay :D
    If being gay is an option, can someone choose to be hated so much?
    • #20
    • Dana
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 11/11/2007 7:52:50 PM
    Q, I appreciate your effort in trying to promote acceptance, but I think you've got some misguided views.
    Do you really think that someone just chooses to be gay knowing the social consquences of such a decision? Even in the west, gays are discriminated against and mistreated, why would someone choose such a thing. If it's such a malleable decision, then why don't all those homosexuals who have been discriminated against just change their mind?
    I think it's easier to call it a choice because saying it's a psychological issue makes it harder for religion to judge negatively.
    Like Observer said, it's not a choice to have that desire in the first place, it is a choice to act on that desire. You should see the difference between prefering and deciding. We decide based on preference, decisions come form some inner desire.
    By your logic I could say that the only reason why you don't engage in homosexual activities is because you choose not to, but it's not that simple, the real reason is because you find it unappealing for you and therefore you choose not to.

    Just so you know I haven't anything against you, we are just having some healthy discussion right!
    Oriental Arabesque
    Thank you. I think most people around the world think of it this way. Away from prejudice and hatred that is being shoved down our throats. We don't hate gays, and we shouldn't discriminate based on that. But again, homosexuality are individuals who decided to follow one path and not the other. Choice!

    Bambam
    Well if you want to be so graphic about it then yes. Wanting a hole at a specific point (or weak point) in your life doesn't mean that you have embraced homosexuality.

    The observer
    Don't you feel the homosexuality is becoming more of a religion? As I said, people practice it but it's not allowed. People practice it, but it's not allowed. People practice it, but it's not allowed!
    That statement is completely not true about the percentages of gays, and will you please drop that argument. You used it before and I went and I checked every last statistic. The most ambitious and extremely contested one said about 10%. While every single other static showed less than 7% and the majority said about 3% and for women HALF of that!
    And all of these are in a society that is relatively understanding to gay issues. I wouldn't expect it to be more or the same in societies that don't accept it like in the middle east!
    I am completely with you and totally against judging people by their sexual orientation/preference/practice. I can't express more that to me this kind of discrimination should not exist in the society. It's like discriminating against gamblers. Have you ever heard of something like that? To me they're both the same. Some people are compulsive like that

    Isam
    I just did share my observation. But you chose not to see them. I have not done a scientific statistical sampling here. These are Observation.
    To give you something to laugh about Copernicus said that earth is not the center of the world and THE WHOLE WORLD said he's wrong and laughed like you just did. And he turned out to be right! Saba7 el khair

    Nobody,
    Only selective science has shown that. No body is taking emotion or anything. Even religion when taken correctly, is saying that people must not. But if they go ahead and do it anyway. They're sinful. But notice (they do it anyway)

    Mohannad
    I knew it!

    Hareega
    Yes, some people chose to associate sometimes with things that are hated. But consider this. Hated is not equal to prosecuted. When Gays were being prosecuted all over history. They almost didn't exist because they knew they would be killed for it. But now. Being hated is ... well obviously not that severe

    Dana
    Yes, I really believe that some people choose to be gay. I am hoping that this discrimination ends. I don't see a reason for it really.
    People know that drugs are bad for them and they do it anyway. Why? because it brings them pleasure and homosexuality for some brings them that pleasure. Besides it's their way of revolting against the norm of their society
    Religion's position is clear. It's not allowed.
    Who said that straight men never had homosexual practices? The roman soldiers used to go to brothels where boys were being "served" and they would still go home to their wives! Some used it as a method of torture and the whole thing was viewed as such.

    Dana, don't be silly there is nothing against me or you here. We ARE having a good discussion :)
    hmm so u concur that he is neither homosexual or gay and never was right ?
    since u used the word embrace its like it was an option for him in the outside world but he choose to ignore it. while its more like since he had a choice he choose what he is more inclined to choose which is a female over a male.
    so in this case(observation) it just goes to prove that others that choose to go with that life style had more to go on that just pure sexual and prime instincts(we agreed that he achieved his objective by doing the act). so i want to ask if its not pleasure of the sexual nature, what is it that made them make that "choice" ?
    I am just trying to follow your reasoning from a facultative example of jail rape to a blanket statement about gays and homosexuals although you are getting me confused about ur definition of those 2 words along the way
    Actually your last comment is very confusing too. Say it and I'll do my best to try and answer it.
    I think you're asking if he had done it again consensually or not
    He has, but then he became religious and even though he still had the need he disciplined him self against it

    I'm not sure that answers your question, and I apologize for not getting it. But maybe you can help explain it
    • #24
    • طفيلي(  ahmad)
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 11/11/2007 9:46:22 PM
    I look at this matter from different angle. A gay person is not different from someone who drinks alcohol or gambling or do not believe in Islam or committee adultery. They are doing sin from Islamic point of view. However, we are not god to judge people for doing that in this period of time where the religion is separated from law. Thus, we should not interfere what is going on in bed rooms and find somehow to make balance between odd or new things. Now, in our region, they look at gay issue because it is disgusting .This is not acceptasbel form  my point of view to hate something based  on  people taste. It is like discriminating against women and black people. i think that when we know who do we think we are …Then we can deal with this new situation for seeing couple man with man or women with women.
    well said, all of it, i would like to add to the point that we are not supposed to interfere with them, there i disagree, i think the west went wrong already when they raised walls against each other considereing preaching a violoation of privacy! lets give a simpler example, alcohol, we all know that alcohol is part of the western culture now, but when did it become a real problem? just recently, ppl like APA find excuses because they yet dont see the consequences, it wont be the first time an "official" party makes a big mistake, so for those who said "its the APA man, or its Wikipedia damn it" i think they are close minded to the fact that those make mistakes, based on the face that they did in the past! prostitution is a problem now but it is a direct result of the "free sex" move that they embraced in the seventies or before that... ofcourse now its too late, and yeah they have been known for their narrow sights - the west in general...
    my last point, humans were created men and women (there is no evidence of darwins claim that they have been something else before that) with compatible body parts... so it is natural to be with the opposite gender... if homos choose to defy nature, then they have no right to assume any other natural rights! they already gave up their right to be natural, so they are not allowed to have kids, or even be treated naturally, thats what i think... and as u can see it has nothing to do with religion yet... its just logical
    I left a comment here!! I said what matters in he is on the right track now..
    qwaider
    what i was saying simply is that he didn't have those urges before and he didn't have them later so their wasn't anything to discipline himself against. so that makes it a situational case where he just did what he did not because of attraction (which is what defines homosexuality) because of the situation he is in
    so by definition that makes him fall out of the definition of gay or homosexual. can we atleast agree on that ?

    as for mariam ... ok i'll walk you through it
    - There are a lot of groups that speak against such behavior, u might feel a bit at home with the american family association or maybe the family research council or walk into some churches/mosques (am speaking in terms of the US here not sure about down under), so yeah they are allowed to preach whatever they want to their congregates but not all ideas deserve to be entertained equally, thats all.

    - alcohol and prostitution are as old as humanity, Plato discussed the danger of excess in both intricately in his philosophy so saying its a recent problem is about at least some 3000 years old news.

    - you started with the word "created" and ended with "nothing to do with religion yet" isn't that just logical ? can you give me 1, ok ok, half a reference for creation that isn't religious ? never mind that you paused to diss darwin and move on to strip basic rights along the way.

    - what was the connection between the APA and alcohol again ? not that i was even discussing the APA(although it does factor in as a reference).
    "free sex" movement what ? are you a militant 2nd generation feminist by any chance ?

    i sure "pray to god " that there aren't a lot of ppl that "think" like that!

    sorry qwaider for digressing but I couldn't help read that comment being described as logical not even based on its own content never mind beyond that scope (so i won't even entertain a reply after this)

    santa clause sends his regards btw
    ENJOY !
    • #28
    • Isam
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 11/12/2007 8:27:11 AM
    Qwaider , you have got it the other way around. You are the person who is laughing at Copernicus (APA) because they have proved that the sun is the center of the universe (some people are born homosexuals) against your religious beliefs that the earth is the center of the world (people choose to be homosexuals).

    And dont compare your observations to Copernicus's and don't compare yourself to him. He is one of the greatest men of history and you're just a blogger.

    saba7 el noor ...
    Ahmad
    I think we're in agreement then

    Mariam
    Although I think we both agree on a number of this, I think you were a little bit off in your examples. Additionally, things like these have been around since dawn of humanity. They never stopped.
    There are occasions where the west has found itself in err, but what I admire about it here is that eventually the truth will make it

    Chika
    Thank you. He's appreciative

    Bambam
    1st, why isn't the link to your blog right?
    2nd, are you really in Egypt (I'm trying to fix the stupid TEDATA database because they are showing as Egypt when they're supposed to be Jordan)
    Now,  to your comment
    Rasheed said explicitly that he felt the pleasure and wanted more of it. At times, it was very difficult for him, especially at the beginning. But after a while he learned how to discipline himself and run after his desires.
    I'll keep your comment to Mariam for her to respond. But I find a lot of good argument there.
    The APA has also issued a study that talks about how alcoholism is an addiction. And how alcoholics seem to have more need for alcohol more than other people. YET there are people who are like that but resist the temptation. Wouldn't it be hypocritical to differentiate between the two cases?

    Isam
    No Isam, the similarities are NOT what you saw. The similarities are "Copernicus" was alone in his findings. While the whole world was wrong. He wasn't taken seriously at his time. Someone not fit to wipe his shoe probably said to him, That's the Pope and you're just a little scientist. Don't compare yourself to him.
    "Some people are compulsive like that"

    What does compulsive mean to you? Your whole post meant to prove that it is a choice and now you are saying it is compulsive?!

    Yes, if you mean it in that sense, then it is. The only difference is that gambling is considered by psychiatrists to be an addictive habit while homosexuality is just another form of sexual preference.

    Now as for the ratio of homosexuals. I have no idea what statistics you checked. If you post the links we can argue their credibility, but even if it was clear as the sun, you would deny it the same way you denied the APA testemony.

    But - la7e2 el 3ayyar 3a bab el dar - lets take the minimum of your numbers and talk only about pure homosexuals (no bisexuality implied in those numbers). You said thousands of men you know. 3% of 1000 makes it 30 men - which is far 6 times the numbers of your single hand fingers (as you stated)!

    So Qwaider you know at least 30 gay men that you are not aware of their homosexuality. Start your investigation ;)

    Now beside that, you may like to consider Bi-sexuality as a seperate sexual orientation by its own. The truth is, that human sexual orientation doesn't come in 3 seperate states as of (Hetreo, Homo, and Bi), it comes in a spectrum that varies between the extremes. Those who lay at the corners are at odd (and maybe the minority) but I guess that most people vary in their feeling between same sex and opposite sex attraction.

    It would be easy for a person with slightly same sex attraction not to act on them and claim to be following his religion and discipline himself, but it would be much harder for another one with no opposite sex attraction at all to discipline himself. Know what I mean?
    Qwaider, alcoholism is an addiction! There is no hypocrisy in this. This is based on latest scientific studies. Occaisonal abuse of alcohol can be a habit but it doesn't make a person alcoholic. You have to differenciate between this. Don't discredit such a huge scientific association just for your failure to understand!

    Mariam Ayyash, it is logical?!! I do wonder how some people think! What is the logic in your assmption?!! You based it totally on a wrong ground. First thing homosexual are not defying their nature, if you want to talk about compaitable part, then a hole and a stick sounds compaitable to me! If women have two holes, then they need two sticks! (sorry if this sounded offensive - but it is based on your logic).

    Sex is not for procreation only, and in oppose to most common belief, some women do enjoy anal sex as well. It isn't against nature.

    Besides, who said that nature is perfect? go check out my latest post.

    Then what about homosexuals that don't perform anal sex? Do they still suit your natural model? or you refuse to acknowledge their existance?
    addictive habit while homosexuality is just another form of sexual preference

    Actually, that's the only difference in what we are saying. I feel it's a choice, a very compelling temptation. Just like any other addiction

    Statistics are all over the Internet Fadi. I'm sure you'll be able to get to a ton with one google search. Check them. Please do. I assure you, I have.
    As for the APA, I still think they came up with the wrong conclusion. Besides, psychology keeps evolving. What we knew 50 years ago is opposite of what we knew 40 years ago is completely opposite to what we knew 30 years ago. The whole thing is still not set.
    Actually, coming from countries where I grew up. I can only recall like 3 or 4 instances. Not more. I concede that I haven't seen the whole population or areas where there are a higher percentage of gays. But in what I've seen. Those were correct figures based on my observation.
    Now I also agree with you on people's "wanting" sex with a variety. From other humans to even animals and other weird stuff. In such a case religion has regulated all of that:
    If you want to have sex. Get married to a member of the opposite sex
    Anything outside of that, is a sin! Period!
    You might have urges and temptations to do everything outside of the rule. Sure, but you fall under "Sin" It DOES NOT make you less of a human. (Which is my point in all of this, WHATEVER you think is the reason of homosexuality. THEY ARE STILL HUMAN and have every right any human has)
    I know what you mean. But I think I mentioned earlier. If people think they are really women but have the appearance of men! They can go and alter their gender and live happily ever after because they think they didn't get what they really want in this world! And you know what? They will not be sinful anymore!
    Qwaider, alcoholism is an addiction! There is no hypocrisy in this. This is based on latest scientific studies. Occasional abuse of alcohol can be a habit but it doesn't make a person alcoholic. You have to differentiate between this. Don't discredit such a huge scientific association just for your failure to understand!

    Please see my previous comment regarding the same matter. People make mistakes. Institutions also make mistakes
    In my view, alcoholism is not that far off from homosexuality. They are both an addiction. They can be dealt with and people can recover from them.

    Fadi,
    Can you please be selective of what you say to ladies here. I beg you. Mariam is a lady and you really shouldn't be addressing her in that matter. Refute her logic, and try to be courteous (at least for my sake), please.
    ok, link to my blog is never right when i comment (unless when am lazy to not use bambam on blogspot) just a habit of mine.
    stupid TEdata is silly like that since they are routed through egyptian servers sometimes.
    what am interested in the case of Rasheed is if he had any feelings of that kind before jail, which i think he didn't. hence he didn't have the attraction now in that case it might be similar in alcoholism since his behaviour was modified to link pleasure to that activity while he was in jail and had to reverse that. it still doesn't make him fall in the definition of homosexual or gay since he didn't have that attraction as far as i can gather from ur story. he would be some one who practices same sex behavior out of circumstance and nothing beyond that.

    so now we agree(based on that there is an innate attraction in some people while others might not have similar attractions and whether its the environment, genetics or a combination of both it is there at a young age. so there is little choice here in what type of attraction you have, but you do have a choice to act upon that attraction i take it thats what you are saying right ?

    So in that case the only reason you have a negative outlook on things like that is because of religious belief, which is your right personally . other than that there is no bases for being against it
    in this case it is more like looking down on sikh, hindus because they don't believe in the same things you do because they have a different belief set and call them delusional and lunatics.
    That behavior is characteristic of bigoted people wouldn't you agree ?
    some people purely think that religion is just false, in that case we find that the bigotry stems from religious belief.

    On the other hand addiction requires prior experience in an activity while attraction of any kind doesn't require a priori, so again its not a good analogy.
    As for recovery the statistics in this case is really grim
    sorry for the long long reply
    Qwaider, I am addressed everyone here. I guess that Maryam is a mature adult that can handle reasoning of an issue that she represented in the first place.

    I don't differenciate between women and men online. We are exchanging ideas here that mature people should handle. If you don't allow this on your blog then state it clearly so that to avoid commenting in the future.

    Going back to APA argument. Yes, science can go wrong as much as religious interpretations (if you want to take your religion as an absolute truth).

    If you say that religion forbade this, then no one can argue you, and you are entitled to your belief. But when you create theories on your own based on your own observations (that has nothing to do with scientific approach of research and study) then claim that your observations is more creditable than the most advance institution of humsan psychology on earth then that is - forgive me to say - INSANITY

    and here where I can say that I wash my hand - and let this argument rest in peace.

    You are hopeless man :)
    • #36
    • sam
    • Windows Internet Explorer
    • Said
    • On: 11/12/2007 12:31:42 PM
    well said Q...i agree with everything u said in this post...:)
    BamBam
    I can fix all of those for you. Would you like me to do so? Also, you only need to fix it ONCE and then everything will work for you on my blog.  If there is anything I can do to make it easier for you. I would be glad to help you with it
    (by the way, if you look now, I fixed the country flag. It's no longer looking like Egypt. Thanks to you I was able to find this illusive block of IP's )

    I don't think Rasheed had any homosexual feelings before jail. I'm not positive on this one, I will have to ask him.
    I like your reasoning in the first paragraph. But one of the objectives of this article is to refute the "Gay for a day" and "once gay, always gay" crap. And I think I was very successful in demonstrating that these are not true. Heck I even think that there must have been some life long gays who decided to become straight at some point!
    And I also like your reasoning in your second paragraph. People do have a choice to act upon their impulses. They might have them, but that doesn't automatically qualify them to join the gay club.
    I am not against it. I'm saying religion's position is that it's not allowed. And Bambam, I really prefer to promote understanding and coexistence with everyone, including the people were I have theological conflict with. I will not look down upon a Hindo, and I will not look down upon a person engaged in homosexuality. But I will engage neither activity.
    And yes, people who look down on people based on their religion, beliefs, ideas, skin color, language, ethnicity, gender, disability, sexual orientation or age are all practicing an ugly form of bigotry.
    People are free to think what they want, they if someone finds religion false, that doesn't mandate that I should do the same. Simple. I think I also agree that some people prefer to take matters in their own hands and act as god's agents and the cleaners of the human race. That is just the twisted understanding of some, and THAT is something we should all try to cast away
    (on the addiction part, that was the APA explaining how some people get a higher tendency to become alcoholic than others, replace alcoholic with homosexuality)

    The observer
    Me hopeless!? Laish!! allah ysam7ak !! I thought I was getting through to you!
    I will prefer to address the points that are directed to me. Mariam can choose to answer you if she likes BUT that doesn't mean I'm with or against any of those
    Although I find science going right much more than it does go wrong these days. I have to question some of the motives behind APA's conclusion. Yes they have the best and brightest.. But there is a political game to be played here, and federal funding that needs to be collected. It's completely normal these days for agencies to issue false (or at least exaggerated) statements because they are in their best interest to do so.
    And as I said, we really barely scratched the surface on human psychology, this science is still in a statue of flux and what we know today might not necessarily be true tomorrow.
    The religious aspect that I'm taking does NOT say gays don't exist. To the contrary, it affirms their existence and states that committing these homosexual activities is not permitted. So if you want to be a good follower, you shouldn't engage in it. Now if you did. You would be a sinner and you can repent! It's up to the person really
    Here's the part that is my own (and I assure you there are MANY scientists who believe so, but they are afraid of the increasing power of the gay community to go public.) ironically, it's just like reverse discrimination.
    I really don't understand your reasoning at all when GAYS themselves have movements like Queer-by-choice which solidifies their firm CHOICE to be gay! They WANT TO be gay they're not forced to it or helpless! Who are WE to deny someone their choice? Or completely ignore it?

    APA's finding are highly controversial by the way. Even among APA members

    Sam,
    Thank you
    thnx for the offer Q, but i don't like to link to my blog from my comments . something about that makes me feel like am marketing my blog by commenting a lot and i tend to prefer to keep my blog tucked away :D i know doesn't make much sense but i just prefer it the way it is

    see thats the thing that mainly kept me arguing in this post, the thing is that posts like this one reaffirms some of that twisted thought and bigotry and it goes about making it seem like there is an actual "cure" for it (being religion in this case) and that people choose their attraction to the same sex. which i think did that to all those commenting with "i agree with everything, bravo" comments and especially mariam and it didn't help to cast away any of their false belief since it didn't challenge any.

    the thing is that once gay always gay is not tied to act, as we said the core of the label gay or homosexual is being attracted to the same sex. those feelings will remain there, and it is as unfathomable for one to think of changing that, as it is for you to think of being attracted to males.

    as for rasheed he was never gay or homosexual since he didn't have that attraction to start off with, so taking him as a case for once gay always gay is over stretching the scope of the example. his is of a typical prison sexual relations and politics nothing more nothing less.

    I just hope this discussion helped to clear out the idea that gays or homosexuals didn't choose to find people of the same sex attractive, that is something they grew up with (and no they are not all effeminate or see themselves stuck in the wrong body). It does not make people any less human (like some of the commentators views or some of the words you used) for willing to live their life that way. So if all this discussion helped to cast away the bigotry in one heart i would be really happy that i spent all this time arguing

    as for the issues between you and observer my take on that is that there are a few confusions here and there. for instance in the religious sense the only thing that has been pointed out religiously is the act of same sex rape.
    now the logic that if something gets under the main streams skin must be right since historically geniuses have been condemned by the mainstream. so if my argument is right because it gets on the mainstream's nerve really irks me and i didn't want to touch on that(the mention of Copernicus).
    now for me i like to look at both sides of the argument at a certain level of representation so in case of the APA the other side you can look at with the same caliber wouldn't be your personal observation, or the silent scientists but groups like the ones i mentioned earlier or even exodus or ex-gay movements. to me they mostly come off as religious nut jobs and don't drive a logical scientific argument unlike the APA. so i am more inclined to side with the APA even with all of what u mentioned.
    there is a clear cut difference between being a skeptic and a woo, for example am skeptical that you thought about what i said about addiction.

    see why i don't link to my blog ... since my comments are so long that they will bore people more than enough for them to not bother to check it so i save them the trouble muwahahaha :P
    Actually Bambam, there is a cure for people who want out.
    I'm not really sure what you're arguing in the first part since this is exactly what I'm saying too. With different reasoning behind it of course.

    Actually, Same sex anything is not allowed religiously. And I'm not sure if there is anything else worse than that. Rape crosses the line into becoming ALSO a crime. Sin does not equal a crime!

    As I said before regarding the APA. It has a reason to say that

    Now explain something to me. If something is Genetic, how come a psychologist is making the claim that it's inherited! I haven't heard anyone inheriting depression so why this? Wouldn't this be actually Outside the psychological realm?
    And if it's Psychological really, then doesn't that make what I stated about (homosexuality only existing in their heads) true?

    am not arguing anything in the first part against you, just saying that what you thought was clear in the points you were making actually reinforced a lot of wrong thought in others who commented here.
    what cure ? religious  piety? hormone injections ? shock therapy ? behavioral modification ?

    thats fine to view the APA in that light but don't give me the reference for a counter view as your observations since the thing that will be on equal grounds for that are my own observations. thats why we reference more credible sources to enforce our argument and you have those to pick from so why don't u reference them ?

    since one of the most common causes of psychological disorders is genetics, and that is the bases for the diathesis-stress, and genetics is the cause for the predisposition you have been talking about earlier but that is triggered by the environment and experience in the case of alcoholism
    so since its a major cause factor for psychological disorders it is only natural for a scientific society (like the APA) to delve into a realm that is at the core of what they are observing so they have the knowledge to do so and come out with such claims, that is why a lot of observational psychology is done on identical twin to isolate that major factor that is at the basis of observational psychology to devise experiments that isolate each of those factors
    so it funny that you mention someone inheriting depression since that is probably one of the areas that A LOT of research has been done on, and it was referred to the 1920's by Dr. Emil Kraepelin so it is nothing new. dysthymia shows a high correlation with genetics and bipolar disorder even shows a stronger correlation of 50% that a child with Bip has a parent with the same disorder.
    take a look over here.http://www.allaboutdepression.com/cau_03.html

    At the end of the day of we are referencing respectable psychologists of any nature or affiliation they will tell you that homosexuality isn't a disorder (am referring to the ICD just because of the points you mentioned since they factor less in this than the DSM)

    so does that clear out why all the questions are fallacies ?
    its funny, i just caught one statement of bambam bla bla, "one reference to creation that is not related to religion" well unless darwin has proved BMW is an evolute from a fox vagen abu 3ali, my answer is DUH!
    I actually, agree, I don't think it's a disorder OR a disease. I think it's choice! Which mean it's not a disease!

    Genetics are becoming every one's coat hanger these days. Even Aids turned out to be genetic with some people having higher tendencies to have it more than other.
    I think for modern science. Anything we can't explain, we attribute it back to genetics
    thats just a brilliant way to side step and discredit a whole community and back up from the points of your argument after we have already agreed on the fact that they don't choose who they are attracted to.

    i think you are acting the same way as mariam here, mariam honey go play somewhere else i don't bother with people who have less logical thinking capabilities than a 3 year old
    Bambam, that was not nice

    I am sorry that you don't agree, but I strongly believe it is a choice!
    Here's something interesting that I read
    People range anywhere from Asexual to bisexual and that scale passes by hetro and homosexual.
    Every single person has these "homo/bi/Asexual" tendencies to a certain level but we CHOOSE not to move based on these impulses.
    The temptation is there. It's mentioned by God, but even if it wasn't modern science have proved that the temptation is there AND THAT'S the limit of our agreement. After that point I say "People" Choose NOT to engage in homosexuality. While you say, they have no choice. they are helpless and there's nothing they can do about it! Well, NEWSFLASH, go read Queer-by-choice defiance. They WANT TO be like that. They are demanding their right to be that way.

    I don't want to state the obvious here, but you didn't convince me, I didn't convince you. I think it's time to declare this a stalemate. But MAYBE, you will consider part of what I said as a possible remote probability. Just as any engineer would tell you. You should always have tolerance for error!
    BINGO

    "Every single person has these "homo/bi/Asexual" tendencies to a certain level but we CHOOSE not to move based on these impulses. "

    So we were moving in a circular loop?!

    That is what we have been argueing all along! That people have different tendencies!

    No a person with strong homo tendencies would alwyas have those homo tendendies no matter whether he act upon them or not.

    EVEN IF he NEVER engaged in a same-sex act, he is still a homosexual, no matter how much opposite sex does.

    This is the tip of the cup that we were not able to clear. Those tendencies are not something that anyone can choose and they are what defines a person to be a homosexual or a hetreosexual.

    It IS NOT the ACT, it is the tendencies.

    You can always choose to act upon your feelings for something or not. But you can never choose how you want to feel (maybe now you can with anti-depressent) but there is not pill that can switch someone's sexual attraction from one sex to the opposite.

    Now the question for you Qwaider that you ignorned when I gave the starving man example: Do you think that it is fair to force a man with no hetreosexual tendencies (aka has no attraction for women at all) to sleep with one? it is against his nature and feelings, it like asking you to have sex with man (assuming you have no homosexual tendencies at all).

    And is it fair to ask that man not to have sex at all for the rest of his life because of the tendencies he didnt choose?

    I think that even in the Quran God didn't mention sexual tendencies. People were not aware of it at that time. He prohibited men to act against their nature. A man with a homo tendencies should act upon it, and a man with hetreosexual tendencies should act upon it as well. If anyone of them defied that, then this is a sin against nature and God!(if you want to take it religiously)!
    EVEN IF he NEVER engaged in a same-sex act, he is still a homosexual, no matter how much opposite sex does.

    That's where you went all wrong!
    No a person IS homosexual IF he CHOOSES to act upon these impulses in a homosexual manner. CHOICE!is the key.

    As for changing sexual attraction. There's a huge research right now that confirms that this is possible.
    Now for your example. Don't you DARE use the word nature here! Don't call this against his nature if he's acting against nature to begin with!
    You know what's happening to the human race? We're becoming too spoiled as nations. We're becoming too fat and too vain and have nothing to fill our emptiness but think of how emotionally affected by this and that.
    It's all a choice. There is temptation. Just like there is temptation for eating pork. We're not supposed to eat it. And yet some people do. (islamically) but again some people grew up DISGUSTED from it, now you can't tell me that is natural. It's social and as people grow up they choose to do it

    Sorry Fadi, Homosexuality is a CHOICE and I completely respect it for the people who do choose it. I refuse to view them as lesser humans who are unable to decide for their own what they like and what they don't. And excuse me, that's what you're starting to sound like, you're dehumanizing them. And you're depriving them of their most important right. Free will!
    It seems that this isnt going to end.

    "No a person IS homosexual IF he CHOOSES to act upon these impulses in a homosexual manner. CHOICE!is the key."

    That is a very wrong definition of homosexuality. The right defenition is about sexual preference of how a person feels in the inside and his attraction to what sex. If you want to make your own definition the same way you believe your own observation then it is fine! I respect your long years on human psychology and your deep knowledge of human nature Dr. Qwaider! lol

    "Don't you DARE use the word nature here!"

    OH PLEASE! IS it then a super natural power that makes a person homosexual? lol

    Go check latest animal kingdom discoveries. Most of the animal species engage in same sex encounters. They don't think about it, they just act upon their nature. We are no different here. I am not dehumanizing anyone, it is a scientific fact, human species fall under animal kingdom classification.

    You can't equalize between sexual attraction and a temptation to eat something like pork. It is more of that you can't eat anything else except of pork and thus you do it to survive. It is the same for homosexuals, they have a natural need of same-sex attraction.
    Do you think me you and Bambam are going to resolve the conflict of this proportion in one comment or one article or a lifetime? I doubt it! The controversy WILL CONTINUE, even way after we have moved on.

    You think I misnomered homosexuality and that I don't understand it. Heck Bambam thinks I don't understand anything :) but that's another matter.
    The thing is, there are more than one way to understand a topic. You morph the concept to suit your ideas, and I do the same. I view it in one light from certain angles. You view it from others. That's the beauty of the human mind.

    As long as we agree on the fact that "We should not discriminate based on this sexual behavior" then my job is done; my point (and yours) is clear. We hope that we made the world one step closer towards mutual understanding and respect of others. Especially ones who don't share our beliefs, color, gender or habits!

    I continue to think that in HUMANS it's a choice. Using the animal kingdom as preface is a completely worthless argument because you and me know that animals can very much eat their own feces and not even worry about it. But that's because they are ANIMALS! Are we animals? Maybe we share some general similarities but we're not completely animals by conduct! Concepts like marriage, ethics and laws are invented and only apply to humans, not to animals. Discipline and following a specific moral or religious set of rules is also a human trait. And this religious ensemble tells you that: If you believe in X religion, you're a sinner if you do Y! Plain and simple

    Apart from Bipolar-depression which is thought to be genetically influenced condition (ie genetics is NOT the only reason for it), I haven't been successful in finding a lot of psychological disorders that are related to something genetic.

    Now lets draw a little distinction here:
    APA:American Psychiatric Association
    Psychiatry:a branch of medicine which exists to study, prevent, and treat mental disorders in humans.
    Psychology: the scientific study of mental processes and behavior.

    No body is claiming that Homosexuality is a MENTAL DISORDER to cite APA as a source of ultimate truth. It's like Citing FCC on the quality of meat! It's NOT their domain!
    Now Homosexuality as a behavior does land under psychology of people and guess what. The jury is still out on this one. It's one of the most contested and controverted areas of science because just about anything you can prove you will find 5 others to disagree and refute with proofs.

    I guess the bottom line here is that we'll always disagree on this. But does this mean that I hate you? or Bambam? Or gays? Not at all.
    You too can have your Memories Documented

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